In light of the question about St George's Day in the next person thread, I was wondering... If you are a British national, do you consider yourself to be primarily British or English/Scottish/Welsh/Other? (In case you're wondering, I didn't include Irish there because Ireland is part of the United Kingdom, not Great Britain.) If you're from another country, do you view British people primarily as British? My inkling is that most British people do not consider themselves British, as far more of their identity will be tied up in being of their own country rather than part of a political entity. I don't know about the view from other parts of the world.
I don't know why the Government insist on using the word 'British' on all of their documents. If I travel to Scotland, I will meet Scotsmen. If I travel to Wales I expect I will meet Welshmen. I've never come across anyone describing themselves as a Britishman. Is our national identity of being English now too dirty a word to use, or is it just official laziness to lump all of our nationalities together in a nameless mass? I always refer to myself as English, as do all of my friends. I was visited by a Census inspector after returning the last set of forms who insisted I was breaking the law by scratching out the nationality British and changing it to English. He became a bit confused when I asked him to name the four member countries of the United Kingom. Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland and errrrr .... England perchance? Strike out!.... Grumpy old man - 1 Local Government - 0. As Buzzfloyd correctly stated in the "Next person..." thread, April 23rd is the official day although it is not actually recognized as a public holiday in England. St. George was a Turk who lived and died in the middle east, but the English have spent 800 years celebrating his religious day in honour of his beliefs, even if the Government don't give us a public holiday. What a day of celebrations that could be. Check out the campaign for another day off work - here . Considering we are near the bottom of the table for public holidays across Europe it's got be worth three minutes or so of your time. I'll be having roast beef with English mustard for lunch with a pint of good English ale and off to a traditional English Barn Dance in the evening. So, yes, I think I'm English.
Well. I kind of agree with all of the above, and although I do think of myself as English, I am also, as you may have noticed, a complex bunny... Anywhere other than England, I am English. In England I'm some kind of semi-foreign abberation. But yes, the Scots, Welsh and Northern Irish are all distinct and proud in their identities, the English should be (and in many cases are) too...
Depends on the context. If I'm talking to British friends, then I'm likely to be more aware of my Englishness. But if I'm talking to an international, usually online, then I tend to think of myself as a Brit. Having said that, my automatic conception of 'British' is probably not what it should be in that I tend to treat it synonymously with English anyway, as a lot of internationals do when they speak of a 'British accent'. Really these distinctions only become very definite for me when they become the actual focus of a conversation... just like I'm never really conscious of my own scouserness until somebody non-scouse makes a point of it. I have a couple of Welsh friends at uni and I always forget that they're Welsh because the accents are so varied anyway.
Ba never thinks of people as being "British." Grace is English. So is Ben, and Joc. Doors is a Scot, as well as a sot, and a spot on the record of mankind.
From the many backpackers that make there way from the UK to Australia that the English are Ok with being called British but the Scots, Welsh and Irish when asked if they are British will say they are Scottish, Welsh or Irish. In some cases they can be quite narky about it too... Research shows that smaller, less powerful groups will hold their identities more closely and have more focus on it than the larger more powerful group. its part of standing in opposition and maintaining separation from the dominant power when politically, economically and often culturally the identity has be subsumed by the dominant group.
Unfortunately, that's because some people have really long memories that span generations. I come from a part of my country where Rebel songs are still sung quite happily in the pub and several of my friends and workmates have relatives that were involved in a lot of of the cr*p that went down less than a hundred years ago. A close friend's great grandfather was taken and 'disappeared' because the Black and Tan's thought he was working for the IRA back in the 1910s. She can still remember her own Grandfather telling her about how his father was dragged from the house in the dead of night. I guess things like that stick with you. One girl couldn't bring a friend home to play when they were children because her grandmother knew that the other girl's grandfather had been in the Black and Tan's. There are some 'Big Houses' in the county that 'accidentally' burned down around that time too. In reality they were burned out by the locals to try to make a point. I like England. I have English relations and close ties to England, but I would never consider myself to be a Brit even though my country is technically a part of the British Isles. I'm Irish. I'm proud to be Irish, but to me the word Brit conjures up an image of the English flag and since I'm Irish, it has nothing to do with me. The flag I sing my national anthem to is green, white and gold. (I'll refrain from both explaining the meaning of the tricolour and singing the national anthem for you :smile:. Aaaah, the joys of Irish schooling in the 1980s...It did get drummed into you)
Ouch I like being Scottish. But then I have never been anything else. I think we all should fight to hold on to our particular cultural heritage, either locally (the heritage of your particular village, not those weird foreigners 5 miles over the hill) or in a wider sense (the country in which you think of as your 'home', not those weird foreigners 5 miles across the border) both rejoicing in the good bits and trying to understand the bad bits. I like England too as a diverse hodge-podge of heritage and history. Joculator, I think it is a shame that (for reasons beyond my ken) and maybe I'm wrong, but 'Englishness' does seem to be kinda frowned upon but Scottishness / Welshness is celebrated. We all have reasons to celebrate our heritage, but Britishness? Nah. I personally don't feel that one at all. On a side note, years ago when I was in the TA (no abuse please) I was able to state Nationality as Brit-Scot. I think it was nationality anyhow...too long ago and too many holes blown in my memory. R.
a) you are right b) I did say I am a product of the Irish Schooling System and I was taught to say green white and gold probably because of point c: c) Gold sounds so much cooler than Orange.
I think that's part of why there seems to be a resurgence in recent years of English people trying to re-establish a sense of English identity. For example, it's since my teens that you've seen people hanging out a George's Cross flag instead of a Union Jack (which is not the English flag, it's the British one, Maz!), the movement to start celebrating St George's Day, a whole plethora of books on the English identity, and so on. I believe that there is a growing perception among the English - rightly or wrongly - of being a forgotten and downtrodden ethnic group. There is resentment over perceived better treatment of immigrants than of nationals and over cheaper welfare in Scotland and Wales (which is subsidised by English people's taxes). I think also that English people, in contrast with the past, in general feel no sense of dominion over the other people of the British Isles. Aside from a small handful, most of the people I have spoken to about the 'Irish problem' express the opinion that Ireland should have been given back to the Irish a long time ago. The people I've known who don't share this opinion have tended to be Protestant Northern Irish with connections to England (and, arguably, a better understanding of the difficulties of 'giving Ireland back to the Irish'). Likewise with Scotland and Wales, though it gets discussed less often, since anti-English violence in those countries is less organised and persistent. The modern English seem to feel no particular connection with ancestors who wanted to conquer every place they came across, though they may feel pride in their success. I think there is an increasing sense among the English of having to prop up other nations without any reward (though forgetting that England may be the reason those nations need propping up). It certainly gets wearisome meeting Scottish people living and working in England, taking advantage of the English economy, whose superior education and healthcare has largely been paid for by the English, bitching about what's wrong with this country and its people and why they hate being here. You'd be surprised how commonplace that is. Of course, the usual answer is, "Why don't you go back to Scotland, then?" I accept being thought of as British by people from other countries, since I technically live in the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, and, like CJ, I will refer to myself as a Brit at times when talking to people in other countries. This is largely due to convenience, since it's a lot quicker to type than 'Englishwoman'. I suppose I could call myself an Angle, but that doesn't seem quite right... Also, incidentally, perhaps this is why we refer to people as British rather than some name derived from 'United Kingdom' (who wants to be Ukish?), though that may also be due to the current Irish states not being settled till post-Victorian times. And I know that, in the days of Empire, many Scots, Irish and Welsh have been happy to commit to the British cause, and presumably be thought of as British. But I think that the united purpose of Britain was lost with the Empire and perhaps that the divides have since showed even more strongly. Either way, the image I have of Britishness has more to do with Victorian businessmen than it has to do with me. Most of the things that I would pick out as part of my cultural identity are peculiar to England and not part of the cultural identity of Scotland or Wales, which means there is nothing distinctly British about them.
Also, as the Dwarfs of Discworld know so well, it's much easier to write rhyming lyrics with the world gold.
I fully echo your sentiments on the heritage side there R. Each 'country' in the UK does have a vast amount of widely differing literary, cultural, artistic and musical differences which could never be lumped together as British. (even those weird foreigners over the border with their bloody bagpipes ) Easily explained... Just take a look at many of the drunks causing trouble in any European city whilst on holiday. Ashamedly, I 've got to say they are probaby English and more so, football fans. Or is that because Wales, Ireland and Scotland don't win as many matches so they don't have as much to celebrate? Ooops, did I just write that?
In general, i think there is a growing resentment from english people towards scottish people these days. There is a perception that scotland is in some way leeching off of england, taking all their money and then having a big party with it. There's a bit of a debate about whether england subsidises us, or if it's the other way round, thanks to the oil we have. Certainly, the scottish governments own figures showed that in 2006 that scottish people contribute more per head back into the economy than we take out. Now, this is SNP figures so it's quite probably spun the best way it could ever be, but i don't think it's as black and white an issue as to say that scotland is propped up by english taxpayers. For instance, scotland has more university graduates per head than anywhere else in europe, and we pay substantially less in tuition fees than our english counterparts. It's easy to point the finger and say this is surely because the english must be paying for us to be properly educated, when it's actually largely in part to the bulk of our universities being given a shit load of money from private companies in return for being research centres. Adding to this bubbling resentment is the fact that the "scottish mafia" are running the government, with a scottish PM and chancellor. (also, the leader of the opposition has scottish parents and the previous leader of the lib dems was also scottish, as was our previous PM!). I think a lot of english people feel that because of this, they're getting shafted in some way, which is manifesting itself in the "west lothian question". Essentially, this is do do with the fact that english MP's can't vote on scottish issues, which are dealt with by the scottish parliament, but that scottish MP's can vote on english matters, which are dealt with by the UK parliament. It isn't of course as simple as all that - if a scottish MP couldn't vote on english issues where would that leave a scottish prime minister or chancellor? Or indeed any scottish member of the cabinet? And to be honest, there's a general perception amongst scots that the Uk parliament IS effectively the english parliament, with scottish issues and affairs being decided by the overwhelming english majority in the commons for decades upon decades, culmanating in the shockingly anti-scottish policies of Mrs Thatcher. It's only since devolution that this state of affairs has been redressed. Infact, i'd dare say that people in the north of england would describe the UK parliament as the south of england parliament, more than anything else. How much money has been spent on the olympics for instance? Something that is only going to benefit London. Perhaps rather than complaining that scottish people are stealing all their money and living the life of luxury with it, the english taxpayer should be asking what their money is actually being used for/pissed away on. It's the easiest thing in the world to say that scottish people have a chip on their shoulder, and it's possibly not an entirely inaccurate statement, but it's certainly not the case that scotland is the crippled, helpless relation of the UK, having to be carried by it's big brother. Having said all of that, I'm sure you can tell i think of myself as scottish first and foremost. I'd also like to say that I don't think scotland should ever be an independant country. I don't think it's worth all the bother to be honest.
Heh, it depends on the context, but usually I distinguish English, Welsh and Scot (hi Orrdos ) people. The very same same way, I'm of Russian origin (my parents are), but was born in Soviet (at that time) Ukraine. Ukrainian/Russian question is still a big one, especially for RF, which is still reluctant to release/treat Ukraine as an independent state. It (Ukraine) is still a "younger brother" for Mr Putin, official Russia and their mass-media (ie for most of the Russians as well). It took me some time (after my departure for Russia) to understand how diffirent we are - Russian from Kiev (me) and Russian in Moscow. They still tend to think in soviet-empire categories... Not all of them, but quite a lot.
Doors, I agree with your analysis. I think there is a lot of resentment on both sides between the English and the Scottish and the issues are far from clear cut. I think that this has been the case for a long time among the Scottish and is increasingly the case among the English. I think that there are fair griefs on both sides, but that there is a lot of prejudice and misinformation that is unlikely to go away. I haven't encountered anything like that amount of antagonism between the Welsh and the English or even the Irish and the English. It seems that the Scots and the English love to hate each other.
Well, it's really just the english the scots don't like. We're generally friendly towards other counties. In saying that, i don't think ella's come across any hostility since she's been here. And she's well posh. If anything, i probably get more comments when i'm in england - albeit in a good natured way.
I tend to think of people as individuals rather than by nationality, which considering I work in a multicultural* workplace is probably not unexpected. *I hate that word, makes me seem like a right tosser i.e a politician.
I suppose I think of myself as English, but I don't really like countries, borders and passports and all that kind of stuff.
I did wonder whether to include an option specifically for Northern Ireland, but it's not technically part of Great Britain, being the other part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.
Ah, another cruel example of how N.Ireland is shunned. I would say that seening as it's the only place where people have strongly held beliefs about being 'british'- indeed, it's a life and death matter to some, it's pretty relivant to the question (regardless of techicals). Although, on the other hand I think I'm the only one who is actually from N.Ireland here and I don't really give to tins o' beans. And, Doors your not even human- your like some kind of giant muttering pile of bitterness.
