Has Vimes a higher authority than Vetinari?

Discussion in 'THE WATCH BOOKS' started by DiscFlat, Apr 30, 2009.

  1. DiscFlat New Member

    A friend of mine and I were having a disscusion not so long ago about wether Sam Vimes had more authority that Vetinari. This just resulted in both of us getting confused.
    My view on it was going by the titles, beause Vetinari is a Lord and Vimes is a Duke (a Duke being more powerful than a Lord), but then Vetinari is the ruler of Ank Morpork. So if he was to retire (I doubt it) Vimes would have more authority than Vetinari. Wouldn't he?
    My friend just confused the conversation more by saying isn't it just the King that can make someone a Duke or such like.
    From the slightly confused Disflat.
  2. Buzzfloyd Spelling Bee

    Vetinari is the absolute ruler of the city state of Ankh-Morpork. Vimes does not have more authority than he has, and that is made clear throughout the books. Vetinari's title is Patrician, while Lord is used as a form of address. Also, the aristocratic titles in AM are a throwback to the days when they had a monarchy. The Patrician replaces the King as absolute ruler.

    I believe it is true that only a king can make someone a duke, and I think this is used deliberately by Pterry as yet another little pointer towards Carrot being the true heir to the throne. Vetinari implies that he is making Vimes a duke due to prompting from Carrot, which suggests an unspoken working arrangement in which Vetinari and Carrot both know that Carrot could usurp Vetinari if he wished and reclaim the throne, but he doesn't do so on the condition that he can have the occasional favour - such as Vimes' promotion.

    In an unrelated point, I misunderstood the meaning of the title of this thread when I first saw it. I thought the question was whether Vimes refers to any authority higher than Vetinari, and I was going to say that he does - that of the law. [SPOILER] Which is how come he arrests Vetinari in Jingo. [/SPOILER] But you weren't asking that after all, so never mind!
  3. DiscFlat New Member

    Thankyou for you reply. I can see how the title can be misleading, but I am very intrested in the fact Vimes does answer to a much more higher authourity than Vetinari. In The Truth doesn't Vimes arrest Vetinari again? Or, at least, have him in a cell somewhere?
    Also, I had no idea that Carrot had that sort of deal with Vetinari, so thankyou again.
  4. Buzzfloyd Spelling Bee

    Isn't that principally for his protection? I'm trying to remember, it's ages since I've read that book. Vetinari's accused of embezzlement, isn't he, but I think he's not actually suspected by the Watch.
  5. DEATHOFRATS New Member

    Vimes is promoted by Vetinari. I didn't think it possible to promote someone to above your station.
  6. Hsing Moderator

    Good point.

    I think it's also been pointed out that we are having to different hierarchies here - the old one, of nobility and titles, which still are helpful in Ankh-Morpork, but have lost much of their power; and the official politcal ones, with the Patrician ruling the city, and the Guilds and whatnot.

    If you look at the other nobles in the novels in Ankh Morpork, they get their influence over positions, but not so much via their noble titles, even though tradition has both intertwined a lot. The arch chancellor for example does not seem to be of any noble origin, but has more influence than some random Lord. Vimes was given a highly prestigious noble title, partly to his dismay, but not more political power than the Patrician. Vimes political influence grew mainly because the Watch he leads did.
  7. trees New Member

    I believe the title Doge (as in Venice) is a variant on duke so it is possible to be elected a duke.

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