Message Board Upgrade

Don't know if anyone else has had this problem, but I've not been able to log in in 3 days.

Had to re-register today as The Jackal (old log in name was TheJackal). Is there some way this problem can be fixed so that it remembers I have been registered as TheJackal for ages & my password works?

Well, to clear this up: seeing as I was the first to use the word brat (and not Doors) I'll just say that the word as I meant it had nothing to do with dishonesty. No implication like that had even occurred to me. I meant pretty much the definition Doors gave. And yes, I don't know Andalusian. As I said, this is just how it came across to me, both in her initial comments and her response.

Coppe, I'm sure she wasn't the only one being blunt. But it wasn't the fact that she was being blunt that I had a problem with.

Hope this clarifies.

I go to the Home page. I go to the login section, put in my password & username. Then it says "Incorrect username or password. Please try again". Same thing happens every time for 3 days!

I go away for a bit and when I get back we have a shiny new board. I should go away more often.

Look how shiny it is! Thanks Mal. You must have a lot of patience.

Hey, it's working now. Thanks Mal

*observes new boards*

I like this.

Not sure if I should rake this up again, but it deserves mentioning.

What mostly bothered Adele is that she felt her opinion was dismissed and her tone discussed instead.

It didn't refer to you. I'm sorry you got caught up in this, Mal.

Tone was the only thing discussed by a number of people. She doesn't like the atmosphere that creates. She feels like she has to adapt the way she expresses her opinion continuously. It's not anything against individual people.
She feels like she has to compromise herself to post here.

In comparison, I'd like to point to the behaviour of Jackal, who actually had a problem (not being able to log in for 3 days, as opposed to not being pleased with the board's appearance) and was nice about the whole thing and even thanked Mal for fixing it.

I know she's not reading this and that she's not going to, but I don't want to leave her side unsaid.

I suppose for myself, I can't leave the hostility out there towards her unanswered.

I'm sorry.

I don't know how to handle this either.

If you don't experience that as being actively rude, then after a while it begins to feel like denying yourself.

She did not deny that anywhere and I can see how she could have felt forced into pointing that out.

That is easy to say. To be honest, I don't agree with anyone here. I understand her and I understand the responses. Most of what was posted should probably not have been posted, but I don't hold anything against anyone.

I can understand that she finds it difficult not to say anything that might tread on somebody or other's toes, but I would have thought it was obvious that if you frame something in an ungrateful way after someone's put in a lot of hard work, it's not going to go down well. And on the basis of that post alone, not knowing Andalusian personally, I don't see how after reading it, it could be seen as not sounding ungrateful.

Obviously in a community people should be allowed to be themselves to some extent, and from what you're saying it seems that Andalusian doesn't feel that's possible here, but there's only so far this can go. In any community, any society, you have to compromise somewhat. To continue with the treading-on-toes analogy, if somebody is allowed to do and act as they please without consideration for others, then they are going to end up treading on people's toes, which causes problems because then those people won't be able to do and act how they please, etc, etc, and things just go horribly wrong because everybody's in pain and on the floor.

It's the consideration for others that I think is important here, in any society. That's not to say that you have to agree with what everybody else says or that you can't speak out. But an awareness of other people is necessary, at least. Otherwise you may as well run away from humanity and hide yourself in a cave somewhere, so then you don't have to worry about compromising yourself.

Coppe, I understand that you're in a difficult position here, but what exactly are you expecting from us?

She gave an opinion in a tone that ruffled some feathers. The opinion was of something Mal did, and Mal responded, so it was not, as you said before, dismissed. Then some people decided to take issue with the tone alone, and I think that's perfectly fair because she did sound ungrateful and some of us had a problem with that.

Then she responded with something that amounted to, 'Ah well, I don't care anyway. Goodbye.' That's dismissive. And damn well verging on hostile. And of course that's going to spark a reaction. I don't want to blow this up more than it already has been, but I seriously object to accusations of hostility on our part. Why shouldn't we be dismissive of her or annoyed if she's going to act like that towards us? There's no reason for us to be amicable if she's going to be like that.

I feel the same way here as I did when you accused some of hostility after that incident in the music thread a while back, when (I think unreasonably) Andalusian criticised Ella for being defensive over that Muse track and she decided she didn't want to post here anymore because of the reaction to that. There might have been some unnecessary hostility, but there was some on both sides, which is something you didn't seem to acknowledge. In both that case and the one in this thread, it strikes me as a one-sided criticism.

Coppe, I'm sorry you find yourself in this position, but like you I couldn't just leave that unanswered.

I'll address the rest later, but I wanted to point this out.

'Hostility' was the wrong word there. I did not mean for that to sound like an accusation. It was just a general phrase meant to cover the opinions some have of her actions.

Ah, right. It seems like this is more problems with the connotations of words being used then, because 'hostility' to me implies an excess (which I personally would refute). It did sound like an accusation in both cases, but if you only meant it in the general sense of negative reactions, then I don't have an issue with it.

Even if she didn't mean to be rude, once it was pointed out to her that she was being ungrateful, she should have apologised.

Does anyone else see the irony involved in the idea that when Andalusian criticises the upgraded message board she is being "blunt", but when someone else criticises Andalusian's tone, they are being "hostile" enough to make her leave the board.

Coppe, I agree that you have been put in a difficult position. I'm sorry about that.

Oooh new icons, lovely!

(and, also, first!) ;-)

Dammit

Good work Mal.

Right, I suppose this is what happens when you try to speak for someone.

I've made a mess of things. I've been trying to pick up the pieces and I've misinterpreted Adele completely.

I apologise to everyone here. I've misrepresented her, and lost myself a couple of times in the emotional confusion.

I thought she was bothered by the fact that she was attacked over her tone, but she meant the way in which she was attacked.

I'll quote her:
"I don't care that I got criticised. I can handle that, but I can't handle personal attacks, and never, not ever, have Doors or Ella said anything to me that was not a personal attack.
I don't want to be part of a community that allows that to happen and is continuing to allow that to happen.

I accept that what I said was overly critical and not constructive. If the response had limited itself to pointing that out, I would have happily apologised and explained that I had an absolutely awful day."

She left because she didn't want to deal with their responses any more.

We seem to have a higher rate of Spam lately (as in 3 spam posts in the last 4 days.)

I know this might have to do with the fact that Mal is still putting everything together, but I'll repeat my suggestion of some sort of Captcha (vBulletin calls it "Image Verification") or other "distinguish human from 'bot"-technology anyway.

There are several ways, including some fields that are clearly labeled "Do not enter anything in this field or you won't be signed up" or (And I liked this one) a checkbox that says: "If you are not a bot please do not check this checkbox."

Captcha's can be rather annoying (I know readability can be an issue) but
we could limit them to the sign up process only.
There are some message boards that either do not allow you to post right away or have you use captcha's for the first (or first five) posts.

Research on the vBulletin boards came up with these two: NoSpam! Question and Enhanced Image Verification ( -> here's an example of Enhanced Image Verification. Very elegant solution)

Thoughts?

With a checkbox like that I would never had succeeded in signing up. Double negations make my brain melt.

True, there are some issues with non native english speakers with that one...

I liked the Enhanced Image Verification better anyway.
The NoSpam! Question does allow you to put in your own questions, so they could easily be Discworld related. Unfortunately that one is also harder for non-native english speakers or dyslexics.

(Oh great, I'm undermining my own points now... )

Oops, I hadn't seen that Mal. Sorry.

Edit: Also because I took about 45 minutes to write that post and there was a lot of cross posting.. .-)

I'm sure you don't mean that it's my english comprehension that's not sufficient.

On the subject of criticism, constructive and otherwise. A while ago, Kat, me and Pixel expressed our wish for icons to be easier to distinguish from eachother.

I felt that our suggestions was responded to with a bit hard tone. I made a long explanatory post where I tried to further make myself clear on what I meant. I apologized for being unclear and having caused anger amongst those who misunderstood me.

I never did see anyone responding to what I had written. No "apology accepted". No "sorry for being a bit hard on you". Not even a "go screw yourself, you bloody peacemonger".

I was sad when I saw the first replies to what I attempted to be a way to help Mal. I was even sadder when I realised that my attempt at making myself clear went completely unnoticed, or worse, was ignored.

I am getting deja vu now. I'm not angry with anyone now and I wasn't back then either. But I think everyone can improve on their diplomacy skills.

I try to remember not to post while angry or emotionally upset, and that trick works for me most of the time. I've also learnt that I don't have to win every fight. Folding down is an option. Knowing when to choose defeat is a key for my social interaction. I also think that being able to forgive wrongdoings is important.

Thank you for that post, KK. I feel quite lost at the moment and your post really grounded things.

I think that was definitely at play here.

Andalusian feels like she's been criticised heavily a couple of times (to the point where she feels persecuted) mostly because it is the only response she gets from some. She can handle criticism, but if it's relentless then it only really comes across as blatant dislike.

Note: she does honestly feel that way. We've talked it through thoroughly and I now know what I'm talking about...

I completely misinterpreted her. I'm afraid I really complicated things trying to clarify her position.

We both just want the whole argument to be over.

Added: Decided there was no point beating about the bush, really:

Doors, Ella & CJ: We both know that you don't like Adele (and probably me not that much either). That's fine and you don't need to. If the way you do communicate with her, however, is to criticise her en masse, the community begins to feel very hostile.

It's now at a point where I know she's not coming back. She doesn't want to lose the friendships she's made here, but she doesn't want to get that hurt again.

I don't expect you to think her response is justified, but I hope you can recognise how you may have created the circumstances for it.

Maybe this could be a start for some sort of healthier dialogue.

I don't like the way Andalusian has spoken to people, but I don't know her well enough to like her or dislike her either way. As for yourself, I've never had a problem with you. I still don't. I may not agree with everything you say, but you seem pretty levelheaded to me. Please don't assume I don't like you because of our disagreements here.

But if someone posts something I feel the need to object to, I'll object. Every one of my posts in this thread, bar the first one, has been a response to a post of your own. It's not like the three of us have met up to synchronise our watches and then bombard the thread, and in fact Ella has only posted once, so if you're going to level that criticism at Doors and I, at least leave her out of it.

If more than one person shares the same opinion, that doesn't mean we're ganging up on anybody by posting. The three of us are good friends, so I see how it could seem like that, but in the end the reason we're good friends in the first place is because we're likeminded people, so there are going to be times when we all feel the same way.

And once again, I'd like to point out that hostility came from both sides.

It's perfectly understandable if Andalusian doesn't want to stick around now. Just by the sheer amount this has been discussed, it has all been blown way out of proportion. But when you've posted with your point of view (or your interpretation of Andalusian's), I've felt the need respond, so I have done. I've only ever posted what I feel needed to be said. If I've merely repeated the same thing somebody else has already given, or if I've come across as overly hostile, I apologise. The event that sparked all this really isn't worth the bitter feelings now, and I think people on both sides of the argument have overreacted.

Fair enough, I don't have a problem with you either. It just seemed like a way to clear the air.

I certainly don't want to imply that you were ganging up on her, just that it is experienced that way. I think the 'timing of the watches' image illustrates aptly how ridiculous that would be.

It's important to realise, however, that for someone who doesn't know that many people on the boards well (and that was certainly true the first time this arose), being in a conflict with a couple of established board members can feel very isolating.

You have a right to respond, but you also have a responsibility for what image you present to someone. You can choose to only respond to someone's negative posts, but there's still a choice there. You still choose to be critical.

I don't mean to say that you need to go around replying to someone's posts to be able to criticise them. I mean that if you choose not to socialise with someone, then do so. Don't just jump on the negative side. It then does not affect you.

When you criticise someone, you're tacitly assuming that you have an interest in changing their behaviour. In order to justify that assumption, their actions have to affect you.

I'd compare it to going to another community and criticising someone there. Your criticism may be valid, but it's still uncalled for. Within a community, in the groups of a community, I think that can work the same way.

Btw, I didn't mean to lump Doors, Ella and you together. It just seemed strange to indicate who I was addressing in graduations. These are broadly the parties involved, but it's not a line in the sand along which we have to line up and pelt each other with stones (or poo, if preferred).

This describes pretty well the feelings and thoughts I had of the post I mentioned earlier.

For the record, at the time of that incident in the music thread, whatever differences we had, I considered Andalusian an established board member. I know this doesn't change how she felt, but there you go anyway.

As I'd never consciously ignored Andalusian's posts before these conflicts happened, it never occurred to me that I would only appear to be making something out of posts I had a problem with. That's my fault, I know, but I do read a lot of stuff that I might agree with or enjoy without feeling I have anything to say.

It might be, and probably is, that Andalusian and I have never really connected just because we're different people and therefore haven't ever found much to talk about. But, again for the record, the fact that I did consider her an established member does show, I think, that whatever differences in personality we may have, I've never been trying to reject her or push her out. I'll admit I was dismissive of her in my initial post in this thread, but that was because I felt she'd been overly dismissive of the objections raised, even if she did have a problem with them.

Again I'll say that every post I made was one I felt was necessary, not merely valid (whether it was initially voicing how Andalusian's posts had bothered me, or later giving reasons for or defending why I thought it was necessary to post what I did). Of course, whether they were actually valid or necessary is something people may disagree with. This is just what I felt.

I can't really speak for the other two, but I don't feel it was their intention to alienate Andalusian either, and I also don't think it's fair to say that criticising her is all they've ever done (although I understand it might feel that way to Andalusian). As far as this incident and the one in the music thread go, I think they were, like me, just objecting to something they had a problem with, and as people have reacted in certain ways, it has escalated. I would not say that they were personal attacks. No poo was flung with personal intent.

Before I go into any sort of detail, I would just like to stress that I do not intend to say that anyone has a vendetta against anyone. I'm not talking about intent here.

I'm talking about the way things come across.

Thanks Doors. I'm glad I got an answer.

I know. I've already acknowledged in my post the fact that things can come across in certain ways, and I understand that, but I think intent is still relevant. It can't all be judged on the perception of one party.

Edit to add: I'm not saying this is what you're claiming, but I am just trying to keep it focused on the full picture.

That is the way you come across. It's not just Adele either, I honestly thought you disliked her. I'm not out to exaggerate it into a vendetta and make any assumptions about your intention, but there is a definite impression of a dislike beyond the indifferent.

Can we refrain from using expletives? They don't help.

Honestly, Doors, I disagree. I don't think she threw a tantrum. There is a defeated, despairing post in there, yes.

She posted an opinion. The first response was "Incorrect!" and her opinion proceeded to be dissected by a number of people.

I don't think there was any intention of picking on her, but it's important to understand the impression it created.

I saw how hurt she was by the whole thing.

This is not about 'ripping' into someone or about blatant personal attacks. We're all mature people here. I do not think that any of you had any intent to hurt Adele. You did, though. That may have been a normal discussion to you, but it wasn't to her.

Thank you, I appreciate that.

Again, there is a difference between creating the impression and having the intent.

I recognise that I needn't have addressed Ella. I don't mean to draw her in.

I do. Refer to my argument about assumptions of interest. You're essentially coming out of the woodwork to criticise someone. You have a right to, but the impression it creates is not warranted.

I would appreciate it we could keep comments like this to a minimum.

She did not leave me to do anything. I chose to do this. We've talked about it. It's our business.

It's not about the apology at all. She has no problems apologising. We both regret Mal got dragged into this.

She seemed like an established board member for being around for a long time, but at the time, there were few people she really knew here.

No, because you know each other. If three people you don't really talk to pop up to criticise your opinion, in a way that is not clearly humorous (although certainly in the first post that relies on a misunderstanding), the impression is different. (Again, assumptions of interest.)

And it was the impression created.

Ow... again, is this necessary?

I fully agree that the way the message comes across is something that needs to be considered, and I'll definitely be considering it more when posting here in the future.

However, about impression and perception: I feel too much emphasis is being placed on impression here rather than perception. I don't think we can rule out the possibility that Andalusian's perception might have been an overreaction or exaggeration. Those posting messages do have to take responsibility, but while it's easy to see how Andalusian might have felt the way she did given your reasoning, that doesn't mean that the recipient is free of fault in the way they interpret it or react to it. There's only so much accountability that can fall on the shoulders of the one who made the post here.

Rinso, that referred to the music thread.

CJ, I definitely agree that perception should not be overlooked. I hope that in stressing impression, it does not seem as if I'm attempting to assign blame. I'm just trying to bring clarification here.

OK. Thanks for that.