...besides me? I know some of you speak German, and I've stumled across a few more who seem to have a basic understanding of the language. I thought of posting a few interesting links now and then who might be interesting for those of you, but if there isn't too much interest I wouldn't bother you. So, let me know. PS: I am not intending to actually post [i:8e0eb8f06b]in [/i:8e0eb8f06b]German in this thread, besides the odd translation or whatever. There shouldn't be a thread on these boards that most of its readers wouldn't be able to read.
I can understand German fairly well, but I am not a very good speaker. I lack the practical experience for real fluency and a lot of knowledge of grammar and vocabulary has slowly seeped out of my brain over the years. Maybe you could post some pieces of German poetry to discuss. I know I'd be interested.
[quote:acdf8e3d8f="Cynical_Youth"]I can understand German fairly well, but I am not a very good speaker. I lack the practical experience for real fluency and a lot of knowledge of grammar and vocabulary has slowly seeped out of my brain over the years.[/quote:acdf8e3d8f] Same really, although I think I've had more years of seepage. I'm pretty good at reading, as long as I have a decent dictionary for any tricky words. When you posted the link to those videos, Hsing, I could understand half of what they were saying, but unfortunately that rarely included the punchlines. What did you have in mind to post? I can't say I'd be interested in discussing poetry, my brain doesn't go that way in any language, though I might enjoy reading it (obviously depends on the poem). I also should practice my german more, to stop me getting rustier.
Okay, lets start simple and hard at the same time. I'll mix the material in the future. Here's a nice little, well, not webcomic... You'll see, just check. It slightly reminds me of Gary Larson, but it's not just a copy. I remember still finding it a lot harder to get punchlines and puns when I was already able to read entire novels. The first one: http://www.nichtlustig.de/toondb/020127.html (There are a few running gags, and the archives [i:e9582504b9]could [/i:e9582504b9]be easier to handle.) The latest one: http://www.nichtlustig.de/toondb/060208.html If you can do thet, you know you've got a grasp. Here's my favourite one: [img:e9582504b9]http://www.nichtlustig.de/comics/full/050512.jpg[/img:e9582504b9] As to help you in any case, here's my favourite dictionary: http://dict.leo.org/
"Toni, lass dat tote Reh los und sag hallo." Made my day. I got the joke in most of those comics. I agree that there is a Far Side influence, but the humour seems a bit harsher most of the time. Which I personally find funnier. Nice link!
Who requested poetry again? Here's a ... a ... sonnett. [quote:b24d545301][b:b24d545301]Materialien zu einer Kritik der bekanntesten Gedichtform italienischen Ursprungs[/b:b24d545301] Sonette find ich sowas von beschissen, so eng, rigide, irgendwie nicht gut; es macht mich ehrlich richtig krank zu wissen, daß wer Sonette schreibt. Daß wer den Mut hat, heute noch so 'n dumpfen Scheiß zu bauen; allein der Fakt, daß so ein Typ das tut, kann mir in echt den ganzen Tag versauen. Ich hab da eine Sperre. Und die Wut darüber, daß so 'n abgefuckter Kacker mich mittels seiner Wichsereien blockiert, schafft in mir Aggressionen auf den Macker. Ich tick nicht, was das Arschloch motiviert. Ich tick es echt nicht. Und wills echt nicht wissen: Ich find Sonette unheimlich beschissen. [b:b24d545301]Robert Gernhardt[/b:b24d545301] [/quote:b24d545301]
Another one... [quote:e64ea1f4b4][b:e64ea1f4b4]Doch da ist noch ein Falter[/b:e64ea1f4b4] [i:e64ea1f4b4]Ein Couplet[/i:e64ea1f4b4] Und da wirste geborn und da fühlste dich klein und da ließest du alles am liebsten gleich sein und sagtest "Tschüß Alte, tschüß Alter" - doch dann sind da die Falter. Und denen krabbeltste nach, denn die sind so schön bunt, und ... Und nu biste schon größer und nu liebste schon wen und die, die du liebst, will nich mit dir gehn und du sagst dir: "Mach Schluß jetzt, Mensch Walter!" doch dann ist da der Falter. Und dem rennste nach, denn der ist so schön bunt, und ... Und denn biste ein Mann und denn läuft es nicht so und denn biste oft traurig und nur sehr selten froh und denn blätterste schon mal im Psalter - doch da ist noch ein Falter. Und dem gehste nach, denn der ist so schön bunt, und ... Und dann wird dein Haar grau und dann fühlste dich alt und dann siehste sie plötzlich, diese Gestalt und du fragst dich: "Wo kommt die Gestalt her? Mensch, die ist doch kein Falter!" Und dann folgste ihr doch mit verstummendem Mund und ... [b:e64ea1f4b4]Robert Gernhardt [/b:e64ea1f4b4][/quote:e64ea1f4b4]
[quote:5b83fbe462="Hsing"][quote:5b83fbe462][b:5b83fbe462]Materialien zu einer Kritik der bekanntesten Gedichtform italienischen Ursprungs[/b:5b83fbe462] Sonette find ich sowas von beschissen, so eng, rigide, irgendwie nicht gut; es macht mich ehrlich richtig krank zu wissen, daß wer Sonette schreibt. Daß wer den Mut hat, heute noch so 'n dumpfen Scheiß zu bauen; allein der Fakt, daß so ein Typ das tut, kann mir in echt den ganzen Tag versauen. Ich hab da eine Sperre. Und die Wut darüber, daß so 'n abgefuckter Kacker mich mittels seiner Wichsereien blockiert, schafft in mir Aggressionen auf den Macker. Ich tick nicht, was das Arschloch motiviert. Ich tick es echt nicht. Und wills echt nicht wissen: Ich find Sonette unheimlich beschissen. [b:5b83fbe462]Robert Gernhardt[/b:5b83fbe462] [/quote:5b83fbe462][/quote:5b83fbe462] First glance impressions (will take a closer look later): I'm not sure what to think of this. I don't agree with him at all, but I'm not sure if I should take his aggression that seriously. He seems to implicitly criticise the modernist equivalent by twisting the sonnet through the use of unjustified, ugly, aggressive language. I don't think "abgefuckter Kacker" is meant to call up sympathy towards the author. I suspect the presence of irony, although I'm not sure. If it is present, he seems to delight in showing it not through content but through hyperbole. On the other hand, he uses a number of poetic devices to prove its "rigidness." "Dass wer den Mut / hat," for instance, seems to illustrate how meter breaks up natural language. The same goes for "Und die Wut / darüber." Even if meant ironically, the element of criticism is quite clear. This leads me to doubt his use of aggression. If he does intend to criticise the sonnet, why undermine his own point?
Just a very quick answer as I'm on the run, but the use of a sonnett to criticise sonnetts, technically flawless, but in gutter language... should make the use of irony quite clear. I'm not sure if Gernhardt has ever written any poem at all that's not to be read with a twinkle in the eye, so to say ("Augenzwinkern"). More later.
[quote:d428a1b3b4="Hsing"]Just a very quick answer as I'm on the run, but the use of a sonnett to criticise sonnetts, technically flawless, but in gutter language... should make the use of irony quite clear. I'm not sure if Gernhardt has ever written any poem at all that's not to be read with a twinkle in the eye, so to say ("Augenzwinkern"). More later. [/quote:d428a1b3b4] Thanks, I couldn't really see past my initial indignation at what he was saying ("How can he say that? Sonnets are not rigid!" "Kacker?? Bastard."). Then what do you think is his point? My answer would be that he's proving it's not the form that matters, it's the poet's voice. A sonnet will only be rigid if the poet's voice is rigid. In a similar vein, the images do not need to be grand and the language does not need to be elevated. I'll have a look at the other one later, btw.
I don't speak German fluently, but I am taking a German course in university (it shares some similarities with one of my native languages.) So I'm finding this poetry to be very interesting. I'm afraid I can't really offer any opinions about the content as my knowledge of the language is still very rudimentary. However, it's helping me expand my vocabulary a little to include some [i:039ed068f3]choice words[/i:039ed068f3].
[quote:42044716e2="Cynical_Youth"] Thanks, I couldn't really see past my initial indignation at what he was saying ("How can he say that? Sonnets are not rigid!" "Kacker?? Bastard."). Then what do you think is his point? My answer would be that he's proving it's not the form that matters, it's the poet's voice. A sonnet will only be rigid if the poet's voice is rigid. In a similar vein, the images do not need to be grand and the language does not need to be elevated. I'll have a look at the other one later, btw.[/quote:42044716e2] Good take at it, I wouldn't disagree. I also think that when this particular poet writes something, it could always be because he thought it might fun... Honestly. But: He also proves that the form DOES matter, at least it feels like that to me, because even if it's quite common language, it still gains a kind of melody through it's form. You know, as someone writing German poetry for decades, he must have met a lot of those people who declared that all the old forms, from sonnett to rhyme to rythm, were all old fashioned and rigid, that wanting to adress the audience was as such bigottry, and so on. There was a famous German word - a motto for many- "Publikumsbeschimpfung". I could imagine the literary ego of this poem as the parody of such a figure - it does not have to be identical with the author and his own opinion. I never come to final resultions regarding poetry/ poets. For me, that's not the point. I'll never truly know what the author wanted to tell me, nor might he (or she) himself in many cases, so my interpretation will always be one of many possible ones who are all equally rightful, in a way. It's what I get out of the poem that matters. But its still interesting to see what others find in it. Hope I make sense. Poker, this link was hardly visible, it might be helpful, so I'll repeat it: http://dict.leo.org/ Other language resources for stuy and sometimes fun: http://germanenglishwords.com/ http://germazope.uni-trier.de/Projects/DWB http://www.lrz-muenchen.de/~hr/lang/dt-hist.html
A little late in returning to this, but I don't want this to slip off the page without adding some more comments. [quote:3906df4e51="Hsing"]I never come to final resultions regarding poetry/ poets. For me, that's not the point. I'll never truly know what the author wanted to tell me, nor might he (or she) himself in many cases, so my interpretation will always be one of many possible ones who are all equally rightful, in a way. It's what I get out of the poem that matters. But its still interesting to see what others find in it. Hope I make sense. [/quote:3906df4e51] Yeah, you make a great deal of sense. I suppose coming to a conclusion and analysing is my way of finding what I get out of the poem. I don't want to label anything the only solution. In the end, whatever impression can be truthfully gleaned from the text is valid. [quote:3906df4e51][b:3906df4e51]Doch da ist noch ein Falter[/b:3906df4e51] [i:3906df4e51]Ein Couplet[/i:3906df4e51] Und da wirste geborn und da fühlste dich klein und da ließest du alles am liebsten gleich sein und sagtest "Tschüß Alte, tschüß Alter" - doch dann sind da die Falter. Und denen krabbeltste nach, denn die sind so schön bunt, und ... Und nu biste schon größer und nu liebste schon wen und die, die du liebst, will nich mit dir gehn und du sagst dir: "Mach Schluß jetzt, Mensch Walter!" doch dann ist da der Falter. Und dem rennste nach, denn der ist so schön bunt, und ... Und denn biste ein Mann und denn läuft es nicht so und denn biste oft traurig und nur sehr selten froh und denn blätterste schon mal im Psalter - doch da ist noch ein Falter. Und dem gehste nach, denn der ist so schön bunt, und ... Und dann wird dein Haar grau und dann fühlste dich alt und dann siehste sie plötzlich, diese Gestalt und du fragst dich: "Wo kommt die Gestalt her? Mensch, die ist doch kein Falter!" Und dann folgste ihr doch mit verstummendem Mund und ... [b:3906df4e51]Robert Gernhardt [/b:3906df4e51][/quote:3906df4e51] I love how the first hopeful "und ..." develops into the last uncertain "und ..." It seems to summarise the human condition, in the same way the rest of the poem attempts it. In the same way "schön bunt" turns into "verstummendem Mund." If you read every stanza as filled with longing for what is not present, it becomes quite a tragic poem. Does that last "und" mean it is never found? Or that it is impossible to find? Or that everything will be found after life? And what about the distance between the writer and the person in the poem? The first two stanzas seem to suggest that he is talking about someone younger, the first stanzas reads like he is describing his child. The shift from "da" to "nu" to "denn" to "dann" suggests this as well. This leads me to wonder what he is drawing on for the last two stanzas. His own experience? How accurate a reflection will this then be on the life of the person described? Is it a parent's warning? Or perhaps even a parent's fear? Or even envy that his youth is over, that he is now part of the older, "outdated," generation? "Falter" is an interesting word here. I seem to remember it meaning "butterfly," but I could be wrong. If I am correct in that, it would centralise love. Which places everything in a new perspective. Is the title then the conclusion? Anyway, those were my questions. Thanks for posting these, Hsing. Edit to add: Somehow missed the dictionary link Hsing gave. "Falter" is indeed "butterfly."
The interesting thing I only recognized when you translated "Falter" is that it is butterfly, but... "Schmetterling" is the nice multicoloured thing you get at daylight - butterfly. "Motte" = "moth" "Falter" can be both, depending on context... "schön bunt" would more likely be a "Schmetterling", in different context ("nachts taumeln Falter um die Laterne") it would be their nocturnal cousins. ...more later.
For those who understand the text... Its a vote of one of Germany's TV channels in public hand on the German's favourite book. Well, it doesn't specifically say "the Germans"... so any of you should be allowed to enter, too. http://www.ard.de/kultur/buecher/lieblingsbuch/-/id=8350/nid=8350/did=405444/11opyod/index.html
So, for those who might understand a bit of it, a subscript of an article a German TV news magazine broadcasted about PTerry, plus two links to the interview. http://www.zdf.de/ZDFde/inhalt/12/0,1872,3972972,00.html http://www.zdf.de/ZDFde/inhalt/23/0,1872,3975671,00.html http://www.zdf.de/ZDFde/inhalt/1/0,1872,3975681,00.html
