Are you patriotic?

Ecksian's stated location made me think about this. Some of us love our countries; some to the point of hating other countries. Some of us like some aspects of our countries while disliking others. Some hate their countries, and feel guilty and ashamed about where they come from.

How do you feel about your country? And does it affect how you feel about any other countries?

I said that I have mixed feelings about my country. (By the way, by 'my country', I mean England rather than the UK.) I love the land, have a certain fondness even for the more odious people, love the language and see a lot to be proud of in our contribution to the world and its history. However, I often feel distraught over our government, horrified by some of our 'contribution' to the world (like selling guns to third world countries for use by child soldiers), guilty about some of our history and ashamed of some of my fellow nationals.

I’m quite patriotic in a jokey way, but beyond the superifical I don’t really care. Coming from N.Ireland I’ve seen what patriotism and the love of your country can drive people too (possibly this is nationalism?) and I don’t like it. People want to ‘protect’ what they love, normally in ways that our ethically ambiguous (from middle class casual racism to NF shin kicking’s). Of course, there is a far more harmless side of it, but even people all coming together for the football annoys me; I find it slightly fake when these national events mean we’re suddenly going to like something that we didn’t really like before.

I think is all a little arbitory, the only reason you love your country is because you we’re born there, because it’s yours. Not really, because you’ve made any real conscious decision to love the things that it embodies. Every country has something to love, if grace was born in anywhere else in the world the things she loved about England would probably be replaced by something great about what ever country she was born in.

I think it’s one of those things that lets people box themselves in, lets them define themselves has something outside of themselves. I’m English, rather than I’m me. Something that moves us away from the individual to the group. It’s much easier to have a ‘us’ vs ‘them’ mentalitity than it is to have a ‘you’ vs ‘me’.

[quote:0c063b7d2e="Rincewind"]I think is all a little arbitory, the only reason you love your country is because you we’re born there, because it’s yours. Not really, because you’ve made any real conscious decision to love the things that it embodies. Every country has something to love, if grace was born in anywhere else in the world the things she loved about England would probably be replaced by something great about what ever country she was born in.

I think it’s one of those things that lets people box themselves in, lets them define themselves has something outside of themselves. I’m English, rather than I’m me. Something that moves us away from the individual to the group. It’s much easier to have a ‘us’ vs ‘them’ mentalitity than it is to have a ‘you’ vs ‘me’.[/quote:0c063b7d2e]
I only partly agree with this. I certainly agree that much of it is the lottery of birth. But that is only the start. If I had been born in Japan, I would probably love Japan - because I would have been brought up there, I would have Japanese cultural values, the Japanese landscape would be familiar to me, my mindset would be shaped by Japanese mythology, Japanese ethics and so on and so forth.

Instead, I was born in England; and while that may have been an accident, the rest of it is not. I am an Englishwoman to the core, for good or ill. When I see the dark grey, stormy sea at whose shores I grew up, or the white cliffs along the coastline here, or the great rolling downs, or the woods or the meadows... I feel profoundly at one with the land, and I feel at home here. If I had grown up in Tibet, I would probably feel the same way about the mountains; or if I had grown up in Saudi, maybe I would feel that way about the desert. But I grew up here, and after the initial chance of birth, it became almost inevitable for me.

Also, I agree that every country has something to love, and there are things I love about many countries. But this is the country where I feel I belong. I recognise that this is simply because I grew up here; but that doesn't change it, it's simply the reason.

"I'm a Discworld fan."
"That's only because you read his books and really enjoy them!"
"Um... well, yeah..."

"I belong here."
"That's only because you were born and grew up here!"
"Um... well, yeah..."

I disagree with you about it boxing people in, too. My nationality is only part of my identity. Your point would be true if I thought of myself as an Englishwoman, and only an Englishwoman - but I don't. As humans, the groups we belong to are an important part of how we see ourselves, because we are social creatures. But we also have a sense of self as distinct from the group. Not "I'm English" instead of "I'm me", but "I'm me", and part of that is "I'm English". That part might be something you are happy about or unhappy about, but it's there.

Some people are far more rootless, and their national identity plays a smaller role in their sense of self; perhaps their lack of national identity is an important part of their personal identity. But I don't see a sense of national identity as an inherently bad thing.

Otherwise, Rinso, why would you care when people say you're not Irish? For the record, you're one of the most Irish people I know.

[quote:54338e3f5a]
I only partly agree with this. I certainly agree that much of it is the lottery of birth. But that is only the start. If I had been born in Japan, I would probably love Japan - because I would have been brought up there, I would have Japanese cultural values, the Japanese landscape would be familiar to me, my mindset would be shaped by Japanese mythology, Japanese ethics and so on and so forth.

Instead, I was born in England; and while that may have been an accident, the rest of it is not. I am an Englishwoman to the core, for good or ill. When I see the dark grey, stormy sea at whose shores I grew up, or the white cliffs along the coastline here, or the great rolling downs, or the woods or the meadows... I feel profoundly at one with the land, and I feel at home here. If I had grown up in Tibet, I would probably feel the same way about the mountains; or if I had grown up in Saudi, maybe I would feel that way about the desert. But I grew up here, and after the initial chance of birth, it became almost inevitable for me. [/quote:54338e3f5a]

I agree with all that. While the place your born is just caused by the randomness of life, the love that you feel for it is real. I guess for me, there is a sense of, I dunno, meaninglessness about that. You'd probably love where ever you where born so it doesn't really matter where your from, if you see what I mean? I'm not explaining myself very well.

[quote:54338e3f5a]
I disagree with you about it boxing people in, too. My nationality is only part of my identity. Your point would be true if I thought of myself as an Englishwoman, and only an Englishwoman - but I don't. As humans, the groups we belong to are an important part of how we see ourselves, because we are social creatures. But we also have a sense of self as distinct from the group. Not "I'm English" instead of "I'm me", but "I'm me", and part of that is "I'm English". That part might be something you are happy about or unhappy about, but it's there.
[/quote:54338e3f5a]

I should re-phrase it's another thing that can be used to box people in, mostly by ignorant people. It's another thing, that harmless in itself, can be used to create walls between each other. I'd rather we start to define ourselves on a broader scale. For example, you'd probably say you love all of English culture (would you?) even though there are massive parts of it you've never experienced- you still consider yourself part of it. I'd rather we started to consider and define ourselves on a global stage, though there are cultures and ideas in the world I've not experienced I'm still part of it. I know it's a bit of a hippy like idea, but I think if people started defining themselves by what draws them closer to people rather than by what makes them distinct from people the world would be a better place ( I know you don't do this- but the type of people I normally call patriotic do).

I think it's really about caring too much. People to fear that opening our culture is a risk, when for me, if it wasn't for the luck of history they could just as easly be in love the culture they now see as a treat.


[quote:54338e3f5a]
Some people are far more rootless, and their national identity plays a smaller role in their sense of self; perhaps their lack of national identity is an important part of their personal identity. But I don't see a sense of national identity as an inherently bad thing.


Otherwise, Rinso, why would you care when people say you're not Irish? For the record, you're one of the most Irish people I know.[/quote:54338e3f5a]


Well, Really I don't. Not [b:54338e3f5a]really[/b:54338e3f5a]. I used to care, I used to care a lot but the then what does beings 'Irish' mean? Is it coming from a piece of geography or is it the attitude of the people?

I the things I loved about my 'home' it's rolling green fields the attitude of the people exist all over the world. The wood in England is pretty much the same as a wood in Ireland. I should love 'woods' not the countries woods are in. I loved spending time with my family there, but that has nothing to do with the land. Like, what does it actually mean to be 'one of the most irish people' you know?

This is an interesting topic grace. Bizzarely, I was planning on starting a topic similar to my religious one (on the old board) about different people cultures which is losely on a similar vain.


Something that I find wierd is the pride an guilt people feel for there country. For example, if your countries goverment does something you apose, and you have fought it to the extent of your power why do you feel guilty about it? your not doing the actions, your not even condoning the actions. Is the goverment or the actions of the country always a representation of you?

Conversly, being proud of your countries history is a bit wierd for me. Shakespeare is great, right, but i don't understand why people can be proud to have lived in the same country as him. What does it mean? they personally haven't contributed to this piece of greatest only existed in the same geographical location as him.

[quote:92496ba57b="Rincewind"]I’m quite patriotic in a jokey way, but beyond the superifical I don’t really care. Coming from N.Ireland ...[/quote:92496ba57b]Wow, I didn't know that; I thought you were a cockney lad, I mean Look at those Bexley's?

Anyway, the whole idea of seperate countries has always seemed a little odd to me; I like England, but no more or less than many other places I've been. I'd stand up for England in a debate if someone said it was a shithole, but only because I think it isn't.

I think countries perpetuate the 'them and us' mentality in humans and hope that one day we all grow out of it and live wherever we want to live, see that the 'them' we are 'letting in' are just 'us' from over there.

[quote:eb7d6d0ac0="Rincewind"] I agree with all that. While the place your born is just caused by the randomness of life, the love that you feel for it is real. I guess for me, there is a sense of, I dunno, meaninglessness about that. You'd probably love where ever you where born so it doesn't really matter where your from, if you see what I mean? I'm not explaining myself very well.[/quote:eb7d6d0ac0]
I think I understand you. Obviously, it's a bit hard to talk about hypotheticals in this case, but let's assume I would love whichever country I had been born in. The thing is, I would love it for different reasons, depending upon which country it was. The things you might love about England are very different from the things you might love about Brazil or Afghanistan, for example. And that means different things would be important to you. So loving your country can be very meaningful; and, I have to say, feeling love is a meaningful thing for we humans, even if it's automatic.

[quote:eb7d6d0ac0]I should re-phrase it's another thing that can be used to box people in, mostly by ignorant people. It's another thing, that harmless in itself, can be used to create walls between each other.[/quote:eb7d6d0ac0]
I think that pretty much anything can be used to create walls if we want it to. The problem is not the thing that is used but the tendency to create walls. Denying our defining features to try and prevent us from using them in a bad way would be a loss, to my mind. Let me draw an analogy.

Humans can move, and they can use the ability to move to hurt each other. So we could deny our ability to move, and therefore avoid physically harming each other. But we would have stopped moving, and lost all the other things that go with it.

Nationality is not a segregative force, it is just a thing. It is a thing that is often used for segregative force, but that is not all it is, and do deny it for the sake of preventing its negative use would be to lose all its positive aspects.

Am I even making sense?

[quote:eb7d6d0ac0] I'd rather we start to define ourselves on a broader scale. For example, you'd probably say you love all of English culture (would you?)[/quote:eb7d6d0ac0]
Absolutely not!

Actually, what are you thinking of when you say English culture. A large part of English culture consists of getting completely bladdered as often as possible, and I certainly don't love that. English culture includes institutional bigotry, the adulation of pessimism and cynicism, a certain maudlin nostalgia, hooliganism, arrogance and all sorts of other nasties.

Or were you thinking of 'culture' as in the arts? I try to like opera, but it's really not my thing, and I can't spend too long in an art gallery without getting itchy. Anyway, I digress.
[quote:eb7d6d0ac0] even though there are massive parts of it you've never experienced- you still consider yourself part of it. [/quote:eb7d6d0ac0]
Yes. Because I consider being English a defining quality for me, that means being part of England as a concept and a holistic entity. This is an important point that we'll come back to later.

[quote:eb7d6d0ac0]I'd rather we started to consider and define ourselves on a global stage, though there are cultures and ideas in the world I've not experienced I'm still part of it. I know it's a bit of a hippy like idea, but I think if people started defining themselves by what draws them closer to people rather than by what makes them distinct from people the world would be a better place ( I know you don't do this- but the type of people I normally call patriotic do).[/quote:eb7d6d0ac0]
Stop being so closed-minded about patriots, man! Heal your head!

I think it's important to remember that equal does not mean the same. We can hold people as equals while still acknowledging our differences. I am [i:eb7d6d0ac0]not[/i:eb7d6d0ac0] the same as an old Tunisian man (no, really). That doesn't mean we can't hold each other as equals, or be drawn closer together by you radical Irish hippies, but being drawn together would not be an invalidation of the things that make us who we are. I think diversity is a cause for celebration, not a subject for destruction or denial.

[quote:eb7d6d0ac0]I think it's really about caring too much. People to fear that opening our culture is a risk, when for me, if it wasn't for the luck of history they could just as easly be in love the culture they now see as a treat.[/quote:eb7d6d0ac0]
I disagree. It's not about care, it's about fear. I also think you make a mistake by generalising that people who love their countries fear opening their countries and allowing others in. Many English patriots recognise that the cultural mix here is what defines this country and made it what it is. It's something many English people are proud of. It is not a characteristic of patriotism to fear or hate other cultures; that would be nationalism.

[quote:eb7d6d0ac0][quote:eb7d6d0ac0]Otherwise, Rinso, why would you care when people say you're not Irish? For the record, you're one of the most Irish people I know.[/quote:eb7d6d0ac0]


Well, Really I don't. Not [b:eb7d6d0ac0]really[/b:eb7d6d0ac0]. I used to care, I used to care a lot but the then what does beings 'Irish' mean? Is it coming from a piece of geography or is it the attitude of the people?[/quote:eb7d6d0ac0]
I'm glad you don't really care. I am of the opinion that nationality is a state of mind that usually has firm roots in a geographical location, but doesn't have to.

[quote:eb7d6d0ac0]I the things I loved about my 'home' it's rolling green fields the attitude of the people exist all over the world. The wood in England is pretty much the same as a wood in Ireland. I should love 'woods' not the countries woods are in. I loved spending time with my family there, but that has nothing to do with the land. Like, what does it actually mean to be 'one of the most irish people' you know?[/quote:eb7d6d0ac0]
Actually, those rolling green fields and woods [i:eb7d6d0ac0]don't[/i:eb7d6d0ac0] exist all over the world and aren't the same everywhere! England is not significantly different from Ireland in terms of the landscape, but this corner of the world is certainly different from others. A wood is not just a wood. The species of plants, the composition of the soil, the shape of the land, the type of rocks, the nature of the local weather; these things will all change from place to place.

As I suggested before, nationality is probably more of a state of mind than anything else. If you had a strong sense of Irish culture that you really identified with, you'd probably have a good idea of what was meant by 'the irish people'. It's a phrase that conveys no meaning without the emotion to go with it. Like not having a word for a pigment you can't see, or something. (I don't mean to suggest you have a deficiency... Only that whether it has meaning or not is personal to you.)

[quote:eb7d6d0ac0]Something that I find wierd is the pride an guilt people feel for there country. For example, if your countries goverment does something you apose, and you have fought it to the extent of your power why do you feel guilty about it? your not doing the actions, your not even condoning the actions. Is the goverment or the actions of the country always a representation of you?[/quote:eb7d6d0ac0]
Remember that point I said we'd come back to? "Because I consider being English a defining quality for me, that means being part of England as a concept and a holistic entity."

For many people, because they have chosen to identify with their nation as a whole, they feel guilty for the faults of that nation and proud of its strengths.

Imagine if you went to the same university as some of your great heroes. Well, you're not them; all you have in common with them is that you learn stuff in the same place. But might you not still feel proud of belonging to the same college? Perhaps you [i:eb7d6d0ac0]wouldn't[/i:eb7d6d0ac0] feel that way, but maybe you can understand it better given this scenario.

Also, belonging to a nation in the physical sense can have meaning. Say you're Kenyan, for example. You live in a country that has a good climate to train in for running. Your country produces great runners. You can be proud of those runners who are fellow Kenyans, and you can be proud that being Kenyan was part of what made them good runners. Kenya is a nation of great athletes, and you are a part of that.

If you believe that your country produces heroes, and part of what made them heroic is their nationality and the associated cultural upbringing (or physical climate or whatever), then you can feel proud of your country. Or, if your country produces villains, lying politicians and gun-runners, you can feel ashamed, because you are a part of that.

[quote:eb7d6d0ac0]Conversly, being proud of your countries history is a bit wierd for me. Shakespeare is great, right, but i don't understand why people can be proud to have lived in the same country as him. What does it mean? they personally haven't contributed to this piece of greatest only existed in the same geographical location as him.[/quote:eb7d6d0ac0]
Shakespeare is a part of English culture. It's to do with our language, the fact that we consistently produce great writers, and that we venerate great writing. Given that we venerate great writing, we can proud of having produced such a great writer. It's just the heroes thing again. If you think Shakespeare was amazing, and you believe him to be the man he was because of being English (a fair assessment, perhaps, given his clear patriotism), then you can be proud of England for having produced him; and, if England is a country to be proud of, you can be proud of being English.

Now, I'm not necessarily saying that all of these things are how I feel, but I'm trying to show why you might feel them.

I have voted I have "mixed feelings" about my country, although it might not be the "typical German thing", as I will try to explain.

First, Willmollys explanation awfully reminded me of a conversation my spouse had with his mother.

She: "I'm so going to vote for the conservatives this time, the Social Democrats seem to let everybody in! Nothing against foreigners, but there's so many of them lately!"

He: "Erm... How many exactly? What do you think?"

She: "Well.... ten percent of the population surely?"

He: "No, it's about two. But a loot of people perceive more foreigners thatn there are. We are definitely [i:0539e00d04]not [/i:0539e00d04]overrun, believe me."

May it be that a lot of people she perceived as foreigners are actually German, and that a lot of people Willmolly perceives as foreigners are actually British? Just an idea.



Now, to me and my own country. First, all in all, I'm not defining my entire relationship towards my country over my view of the government, as long as it's democratic, and playing along to some common consensus. It has just changed, and I had problems to identify with the last one already, but well, as it has been said, they have been voted, and that's it -as long as its the usual democratic business.

Now this would change the moment when a government would induce drastic, historical changes to the worse, cutting down the rights, censoring the press, that sort of thing, and a majority would cheer to it. That would probably change the level of identification with my country. It would alienate me. I can't say, though, that any things that drastically have happened since I am politically aware. Blessed me.

Do I love my country? Now this might come across as slightly paradox, but it has become a very German thing not to love your country, and that's a thing I like about my country.

I don't love it, all in all, but I like it. I think I am a very typical German of my generation.

I feel responsibility towards our history, but not guilty, because I was born decades after the war ended. I feel that we, and not only the Germans alone, profit from being aware of what has happened and reflect on the reasons, and have a duty to prevent things like the holocaust and two World Wars from being forgotten.
I belive in the importance of knowing where the society we live in comes from, and in the importance of being able and allowed to reflect and speak about what it has done wrong in the past without being called a traitor of my home country, and being allowed to like what it is now without being called a traitor of history.

I like a lot of what it is now, and there are certain things that alienate me. Especially, though, when I am abroad or in contact with people from other countries I am constantly reminded of how German I actually am, in things of outlook on the world, cultural background as well as in detail.

My granduncle, who immigrated to Canada 60 years ago, keeps telling me we had lost our cultural background because we listen to the same music, see the same films and eat the same food as people across the world. I say, sorry, but he has no clue. I don't need leather trousers and bockwurst to define my identity. Whenever I read, on this board, which films everyone is seeing, which books everyone reads and has red, I notice again and again, that although we often have enough in common to be able to communicate, we still are different enough, really. And I think that's great. I envy you for Shakespeare, but I wouldn't want to miss Schiller, Goethe... Brecht.

What I like about this country? The thoughtfull mentality, which is also one of its biggest disadvantages. Planning, analyzing and discussing new ideas until they are old ideas. But we never rush.

That in the regular supermarkets and food stores, you don't only find a million varieties on bread, coffee, cheese and chocolate, but also typical food from all over the globe, basic Arabian ingredients, french cheese specialities, Italian kitchen, unedible Russian sweets, Turkish halva, and so on. Now, I'm not talking about some delicatessen here, but of available stuff. What I like is that variety sells.

I like that the Germans eat more Doner Kebab than hamburgers, although I eat neither. I'm all for Falaffel.

I like that, here, you shouldn't be able to find a young family that worries about not being able to pay the hospital bills after their young ones birth, because they don't [i:0539e00d04]have [/i:0539e00d04]to. At first I thought, hey, that's nothing to be proud of, because its just the system, and you didn't exactly do much for it and all. On the other hand, why not? Its something the society as a whole achieved, and keeps as untouchable even in harder times (in relation), on the base that everyone pays for it, and everybody as much as he or she can, even though that means some pay more than they get back. You never know which role you are in, and surprisingly, you don't hear anyone complain, not even those paying, but not receiving. Maybe that's the bit I like people for.

I like that people love to discuss, even to the point where a lot of foreigners perceive Germans as argumentative (even though its not menat that way, they just see it as their duty not to keep their opinions for themselves but practice the art of discourse.)

I like that even when you live close to the dock area of a bigger city, and come home alone in the night, and a bunch of drunken, singing blokes comes along, you usually don't have to worry. I never change the side of the street, and was never proven to be wrong.

I like that, belive it or not, the right winged extremist parties are far from making their way into the national parliament, unlike in many other European countries. There is a problem with Nazi hool gangs in certain areas, and the upflare of right winged views should always be observed. That's an issue all to itself. But they have no, absolutely no, political power.

I like that they are crazy about environment issues, although I get allergic reactions when I imagine someone coming from an overindustrialized, all-consuming country with no real landscape left like ours, going to some Inuit and explain them why they shouldn't hunt the poor wee baby seals anymore.

I like that no one cares if the old chancellor was divorced three times, that the new chancelorette didn't raise any children, and that neither of them is religious.

I like that, in general, people are helpful.

I like a lot of things actually...

What I don't like is a problem of my generation, that in the unflexible society like Germany's, it is almost impossible to just make your own thing to try to earn your living, because it is all so overregulated.

I don't like that millions of people are being given the feeling that they aren't needed. I believe that is what they have a hard time coping with, not having less money.

I don't like that having children is almost being viewed as a personal problem, and not a normal part of life. That no one complains about noise when it comes from machines, but people sue when children make noise, even when thos people were aware they were moving in next to a playground or a day care unit.

I don't like that you still get odd looks, when you give your child into such a day care unit before it is three years old, because as a mother, you can't be anything else, and if you are, it is being seen as an attack on the ways of lives of those who do it the traditional way (which is actually not that traditional, because there was only such a short time in history when mothers could afford not to work).

I don't like the growing egoism, even though it fits the working world, with which everything from your actual job to small things like a seat in the bus is snatched at other's people expense, instead of being shared to each ones advantage.

I don't like the general pessimism, angst, and whininess, because we are still well damned well off, and people could know better.

I don't like how people think they have a say to your life that for example some random strange lady in the shop asks me wether my daughter was breastfed and all... but that's probably the downside of taking part in other people's lifes.

And I have that suspicion that all this is pretty typically German - the likeas and don't - likes included.

Edit to add: Gosh, I wonder if anyone is going to make it through this major essay... Took me an hour to write, too!

[quote:d215da1797="Hsing"]...
Edit to add: Gosh, I wonder if anyone is going to make it through this major essay... Took me an hour to write, too![/quote:d215da1797]I did, and thanks it is very interesting to hear a German perspective.

I admit, that I do have mixed feelings about Scotland.

It's a bit of a shit hole really. Public transport is terrible, the urban decay is sprawling, it's full of arseholes and wankers.

I believe a recent study showed it to be the 2nd most violent developed nation in the world. It's certainly the knife capital of Europe.

We have massive heart disease problems and a failing health service.

The weather is getting increasing crap year on year, to the point that we're rapidly hurtling towards only having one season with a slight variation in temperature.

The central belt, where pretty much everyone lives, is a grim, grim place. Haunted by the ghosts of the heavy industries that were destroyed during the thatcher era. It's only recently that those ghosts have started to be laid to rest.

Secteriansim blights the country.

Glasgows a horrible city. I believe Edinburgh is as well.

However, despite the many, many, many problems with the place, I'm still proud of it. I suppose. A bit anyway

Like kenny, I tend to put most of my patriotic outpouring into the sporting world.

Which is unfortunate, since Scotland blow goats at everything these days.

However, Scotland does have a general stubborn resolve about it, probably the result of a massive national chip on the shoulder regarding the English.

We're also good at inventing things, and have given the world many things.

Also: nice scenery.

To be honest though, the only reason I'm proud of it is because I was born here. If I were born somewhere else, I'd just be proud of it instead.

Rinso was spot on with that.

I don't feel particularly ashamed of the government, nor am I going to jump onto any "Blair is the antichrist" bandwagons.

All parties are pretty similar these days, and I'm not about to get into the Iraq war mess.

Everyone has an opinion on that one and nothing I can say would sway anyone from their already concieved notions on it.

The "americas lapdog" comment is another thing that irks me.

As is the way that most people that lambast Blair would be super happy to see Gordon Brown replace him.

Browns been a key member of the Government since the start, so to see him as a pearly white saviour is somewhat bizarre.

I don't particularly like Blair, and I do feel that Brown would be a better choice at the moment, but I certainly don't think that Blairs inherently evil, nor do I think that Browns going to be riding into number 10 on a white steed.

It's not the best Governement ever, but it's not the worst by a long, long shot.

It's certainly the only viable choice at the moment.

I think I tend to confuse patriotism with nationalism. The love of your country doesn't inclued the hatred segregation of others.

There are some ideas that I still don't get, like Graces example of the Kyean runner. Basically to me, that story is being proud of someone becuase they breath the same air as you. Granted, maybe, it's speical air that not everyone can breathe, and i can understand why you'd love that. But i don't get the pride aspect. You've done nothing to make the air good, you just happen to be born in the same cilmate.

[quote:ba364067cb="Rincewind"]There are some ideas that I still don't get, like Graces example of the Kyean runner. Basically to me, that story is being proud of someone becuase they breath the same air as you. Granted, maybe, it's speical air that not everyone can breathe, and i can understand why you'd love that. But i don't get the pride aspect. You've done nothing to make the air good, you just happen to be born in the same cilmate.[/quote:ba364067cb]
I think I managed to put it in better words when talking to Garner the other day, so I'll try once more to explain what I meant.

You might believe that someone's achievement is a direct result of their nationality. For example, young Bill is born in a country where people love playing with language, and there is a shared national history of producing great writing in an age when other countries did not think it so important; living in this climate allows a natural talent to be expressed, and makes a great writer out of him. Living in this nation that thinks language and writing important, he is able to make a living as a writer, and achieve a measure of success. Had he not been born in this country, he might have ended up as something else entirely. And then William Shakespeare would never have produced the opus so beloved of many.

As a patriot, a person identifies with what they see as their national character. They love what is good about their country. So when they see someone doing well as a result of the good things about their country, they will be proud of their country. And if they believe their country is good (and part of the evidence of its goodness is the people who have done well), they will be proud of being a national of that country.


I'm interested in this thread to see how much store people set by the government of their country. A lot of Americans seem to be deeply ashamed of their country due to the actions of their government; this overrides for them any good feelings about, for example, the beauty of the country, the strength of the creative arts in the USA or the pioneering spirit of the people. I have mixed feelings about my government, although I generally love the land and the people here, so I verge on the side of patriotism; but I have profound misgivings about political issues so long-living they are part of our culture, and that tipped the scales enough for me to say I have mixed feelings. However, I have met people who would argue that patriotism has nothing to do with politics and the present government!

By the way, Hsing, I found your post very interesting.