Feminism killed the Gentleman [Valid flamewar thread]

This is something that has been on my mind for a long time but I noticed this espeially when I went for a holiday in the Netherlands last december.

I've been brought up in a very Feminist society (The Netherlands).
Then I moved to Portugal. It's a macho community. It's women are emancipated, sure, but to the men they are either princesses or whores. Or mothers (Mothers are queens... There's a reason the worst insult is "son of a bitch")

At first I was sometimes considered an oaf, when I wasn't holding open doors or letting them go in front of me in a cue.
So after a few years (it's been 5 now) I learned to be courteous, treat them as special, help carrying heavy things...

Then on holiday in the Netherlands I noticed that I got dirty looks when I did those things. I offered to help carry stuff, stood up in the tram and offered my seat, held open a door. Never once did I get a thank you.

I think Feminism killed off the Gentleman.
I mean al I was doing was trying to give people a hand, and I was treated like I was kicking them back to the dark ages.

What do you guys think?

Look, mate, it isn't Feminists who say men can't behave like human beings.

Also, there's a difference between being giving someone a hand if they want/need one and assuming that they need your help just because they are female.

Do you offer men your seat in a tram, too?

So you offer to carry things for men?

Do you let everyone overtake you in a queue?

Women aren't inherently weak or unable to stand like everyone else. Drop the patronising attitude, please.

Btw, the Netherlands is hardly a "Feminist" society. For one thing, there is explicit and degrading posters of half-naked women in pornographic poses on every wall. Then there's Amsterdam. In a lot of ways it is liberal, but that does not always mean non-sexist.

I think a major problem is the inability of either sex to recognize the difference between simple, good manners and patronizing behaviour. The basic treatment of women is almost always cultural or religious in origin and can really give a shock to someone who has re-located to a different country.

Here in the UK, if I see a woman carrying lots of bags when out shopping, I assume she would be grateful if I held open a door to allow her to pass through unhindered.

On the other hand I would hesitate if I saw a Feminist approaching for fear of having some disparaging remark made to me, regardless of my manners.

If men took a little more time to assess the situation and recognize that some women, because of the way they dress or behave, want to deny their feminism, many of these verbal and written conflicts could be avoided.

Andalusian, who deems them to be 'degrading'? I'm not saying that they are or not, since I have never been to Amsterdam, but is it you, or some council, or the women in the photographs themselves, or the Pope, etc...?

Which is more degrading? Women making their living from their sexuality, or men giving women their seat on a train? Are they equally degrading?

Interestingly enough, I think that the issue of cultural relativism pops up here as well... Portuguese society patronizes women... so Tephlon must become an arse in Portugal because it is deemed right by someone half a world away? Maybe. I'm not big on cultural relativism myself, but where does it stop?

Joculator, how do you tell if someone is feminist?

Tephlon, what does it mean to you to be a gentleman? Does it mean the same to you now as it did 5 years ago?

I'm not going to get into the prostitution/pornography debate. There are a multitude of reasons why these things are degrading, but it does ultimately come down to a personal opinion.

Pointless question. Some things are more degrading than others, but that does not mean that we should ignore the underlying causes of both.

This is an easy one to answer. He is applauded for being a "gentleman" in Portugal, and seen as patronising elsewhere. His course of action should be self-evident to any reasonable person. It's just common sense to treat people in a way that does not offend them.

Btw, Joculator... Not all feminists are nasty, hairy lesbians out to do some man-bashing. I don't think you'd be able to recognise the difference between a feminist and a non-feminist. And being a feminist doesn't mean hating a man for being thoughtful and considerate.

Also, "deny their feminism"? Is that a typo?

My question had a point, Andalusian. It may not have been the most intelligent point, or the most obvious point, or the least obvious point, but it did have a point.

Maybe that was the point... or one of them, or none of them...

Brava. And yet you accuse me of posing pointless questions, and tell Tephlon to

and infer that he is unreasonable. Please let me know if that is not what you meant.

Also, how long would it take you to break your "habit" of treating yourself as an equal to men when visiting a society where women are not treated as such? You might offend every man that you talk to, perhaps by the very act of talking to them.

The validity of her original point does not change because there is frustration in her tone.

Yes, some cultures are more progressive than others. Having to adopt new customs and manners can be degrading. Tephlon having to bend over backwards to accommodate the women around him and be seen as a normal man is not good. Andalusian having to act overtly submissive to men in a society like that would likewise be bad. Portuguese culture, and also that culture, has a long way to go. What is your point?

Tephlon, the Gentleman is definitely not accepted in modern-day Dutch society. Common courtesy, however, is. I generally try to go out of my way to be nice to people (letting people go in front of me in a queue, holding open doors). I have never been thrown a dirty look.

Manners have never gone away. Differentiating between sexes has (or at least is starting to in some areas).

I am glad it has.

I don't want to go into pornography or prostitution, as they both involve a lot of complex issues, as you said. The main points that define my views on them are fairly complicated, and aren't likely to be supported by anyone who doesn't already support a lot of feminist thought.

So I'll direct you to these two links, which also provide personal stories and another take on the issues:

A lot of personal stories, newspaper articles and statistics, obviously biased against porn and prostitution but not any less valid because of it.

An extremely long and winding blog post by a very prominent American feminist, pornographer and advocate for women's sexuality on a number of relevant issues.

Edit: I thought this link was worth posting too - Long and harrowing account of a now-feminist who worked in the sex industry.

Though one thing, I don't think porn or prostitution is inherently degrading. We just happen to live in a society that does treat women as inferior and as such, on a general level, all things are going to be based on that power imbalance. I don't want to ban porn, I just want there to be more porn that isn't purely aimed at men who get off on male-privilege. That and more porn that I and other men and women can actually enjoy.

So a girl wants to get her kit off for a guy, thats her choice. If the same girl doesn't like having a door held open for her by a member of her audience then thats her problem. I think if woman can't accept such a minor act of kindness then she needs to learn some manners or at least be graciouse enough to flash a smile.

I don't think tephlon is wrong at all to act the gentleman, i don't think feminists are wrong in any way but come on, if its affecting you to the point that you can't even say thankyou to a man then maybe it isn't so good afterall.

Your quote, not mine.


In response to Garner about the sex industry...

In response to Andalusian...

Prostitution, which isn't the major issue here, has been around since ancient man wandered the landscape foraging for food. Sexual favours could be bought for a handful of ripe berries, although the modern standard is the rent on a penthouse flat or new sports car. This practice has been accepted for a long, long time and both women and men have participated by choice and not by outside influence.

History has shown that feminism is basically about men and women being recognized as equals not one being better than the other. In all forms of animal life the female of the species tend to be smaller, and indeed physically weaker than the males. This should not prevent us 'more intelligent life forms' from accepting the fact that there are many things members of each sex are good at due to our evolutionary development and simply respect each other on the grounds that "there will always be a difference" between sexes.

There's nothing wrong with wanting to get naked for someone, but there is something wrong with a society that, as a whole, pressures one gender to strip for the other.

It's not about not being able to say 'thank you' to a man. It is about not wanting special treatment because it implies that you need it.

I don't see how anyone would want to be routinely treated as if they need help to get through life.

You are implying that by saying you could recognise a feminist.

There is always an influence, because those societies were all patriarchal. If there was equality and men and women had equal opportunities to earn a living, then we'd see a completely different picture. If prostitution were to still exist in such a society, the ratio between male and female prostitutes would be completely different. The fact that the modern sex industry, and ancient sex industry for that matter, centres around the man as consumer and the woman as product should tell you enough.

I agree with that. That is also the problem with gentlemanly behaviour. It implies inequality.

Now I believe that is an animadversion on the gentleman. In my book, the modus operandi of a gentleman is being a civilized, educated, sensitive and well-mannered man. There is no discrepancy in the definition for gender.

He will hold doors open for anyone following him and assist anyone encumbered by paraphernalia. In the latter case this is frequently the case for double-X chromosomed beings, as their median indigenous strength is inferior to that of the male.

It is entirely within the realm of possibility that a female can possess the idiosyncrasies of a gentleman, although I imagine that a new term would have to be coined, gentlewoman mayhap?

I try to be a gentleman and I don't think I do too bad. I'll hold doors (for men and women and even Prince who I think may be neither and both) and most of the time this is appreciated. Men almost always smile and say thank you to me when I hold a door, and most women do, too. But some seem frightened by it. I'll admit I'm probably pretty scary looking, but I don't think it's warranted for a woman to gasp and clutch her purse as she hurries through then to give me a dirty look. This happens way too often.

I admit I'm a little sexist I suppose. I tend to give women special treatment. I almost always pay (even among female friends) I'll always drive, I'll give up my seat, I'll offer to help carry something, whatever. That's not to say that I'll not help men out carrying something or anything like that. That's just being a gentleman, like Ben said. Being kind to all regardless of gender. But I was raised to treat women well and I really don't see a problem with it. Do I believe men are better than women? No. Do I believe women are weak? Nope. I'm just trying to be nice, and if my kindness is misinterpreted as an attack on a woman's femininity (sp?) I'm sorry for the mistake, but I don't believe the mistake was mine.

True, validity for any point does not change due to presentation. The truth is always the truth, even if it is given to you with swear words (hyperbole). I admit, however, to having the human foible of being passionate and allowing myself to be influenced by tone. Asking "what is your point?" is a lot different from saying "your question is pointless".

My point is that I am trying to understand Andalusian's thoughts on this issue. Tephlon should treat people "in a way that does not offend them". That's fine. I wanted to explore the thought by posing the situation above.

The point was to set up an excercise where Andalusian would put herself in Tephlon's shoes. If her statement is true, that you should treat people in a way that does not offend them, then I wanted to pose the question of "How much time should someone have to get used to a new culture's mores?" If her statement is incorrect, as you seem to be saying, that if treating someone in a way that it does not offend them violates your personal mores you shouldn't do it, then my last question doesn't matter.

It is just too easy to respond to frustration with frustration and build up animosity in a discussion. I'd like to avoid that.

Everyone should be treated in a way that does not offend them. There is, however, a difference between that and treating someone in a way that offends you. In the case of Tephlon, I don't see how treating Dutch women differently passes any judgement on his personality.

Nester, any change in values in a society is a difficult process. How can you expect a woman to be able to tell that you hold open doors for men too? I don't see how you can fault the woman for being sensitive to the possibility of being treated as in need of special treatment.

Seriously, this is to all the men that have posted in this thread:
Women have been the oppressed gender for most of human civilisation. Emancipation is a difficult process and society is not exactly co-operating. Why can't we listen to what women want to change? Why can't we be sensitive to their responses?

We grow up steeped in male privilege. On an intellectual level, we never have to struggle against expectations. We don't have to fear for our safety on a daily basis. We don't always have to look pretty, we are never judged solely on appearance. There is no bias against our gender in language (I mean, look at the first post in this thread. Tephlon, I'm sure you didn't mean it that way, but group opinion is equated with 'what do you guys think?').

Do we have to get all offended when our privilege, our safe little world, is encroached upon a little bit? Why don't we talk to the women who give us this response, listen to why they feel offended and maybe act on that?

It truly depresses me that I belong to this gender sometimes.

I have to stress here that seeing the genders as 'equal, but different' does not mean we should generalise based on that. There is no point in assuming there to be an inherent difference between people. If we treat everyone with the same amount of respect, those differences, if they happen to exist within the individual, will come out anyway.

There are more differences within one gender than there are between the gender stereotypes. Nobody really fits those stereotypes anyway.

You're right. I do get snarky when I'm offended. Andalusian, I apologize.

That's fine. In fact, I agree with you. But, I was curious about what Andalusian thought. And, ultimately, the question was about how much adaptation time, if any, should be given to someone from a different culture to adapt... This is a question that seems to be asked a bit in Europe nowadays.

Perhaps Nester should be more understanding when women are upset that he holds a door open for them... Perhaps the women should be more understanding though... Also, are you suggesting that if a woman seems to be offended or frightened (signified by clutching her purse), he should engage her in a conversation about why she is upset/frightened? Somehow, I don't see that going well... especially if the person is frightened.

Undoubtably, listen to what women want and comport ourselves accordingly, however you may not find a status quo upon which the majority of women agree. Many of the feminine nature would be mightily offended if a man did not open a portal for their felicitous journey through said portal. This could be because they grew up in an age where it was demanded or they may simply expect courtesy and good manners from fellow homo sapiens.

Would you prefer if the gentleman only held doors open only for those possessing synonymous reproductive organs? A heinous example of discrimination nam!

Visit your local genitoplast.

That's right, you Coke drinking reb.

Electicman said

This raises an interesting question, do either CY or EM get along with their mothers? It seems as though there is hidden hostility to the feminine sex in both posters comments.

To be honest, I wasn't the slightest bit annoyed when I wrote that. I thought your response was incredibly harsh, especially to someone who is prone to panic attacks when someone raises their voice.

Nobody has said anything against good manners. Nobody is disputing the value and importance of good manners. But good manners extends to both sexes. I'd prefer that everybody held the door open for everybody, and I generally do. Manners does not equate with treating women like invalids, however. I'd much rather, if a man chose to stand up for me in a train, that he gave his seat to a small child, pregnant woman or elderly person. I'd hope that if I was struggling with carrying something, someone would help me. I would also hope that a male having trouble carrying something would be extended the same courtesy. But if someone offered to take my bag for no reason, I'd be wondering if they were trying to nick it.

Also to EM, I, as a "hardline feminist", personally expect courtesy from everyone regardless of their sex. I extend that courtesy to everyone, regardless of their sex. How is that in any way contrary to what you both want?

On a side note, I can understand being afraid of male attention. There are a couple of boys from another high school who walk past me on my way home, and I do often feel that knot of uneasiness in my stomach. Not because of anything they have done personally, but purely because two schoolgirls in the last month have been raped while walking home from school the same way I walk.

As Coppe's girlfriend, I ask: Wtf?

I find it interesting that CY feels that a society that still finds value in traditional chivalry is backwards as if it is wrong to treat women with a certain respect. Because they have kept something that seems to be at least somewhat positive, I wonder at that characterisation. It seems a stretch to call it backward and to insist that the hostility towards such behavior is proper and that Tephlon is being put upon by having adapted to the more civil Portugese way of life when he began this thread by pointing out his home countries disdain for what has become his way of life.

I differentiate between chivalry and good manners. To me, chivalry is inconsiderate, because it makes someone feel belittled.

That does not mean that I don't value treating others with respect.

Chivalry is not done to belittle someone, it is a way to show kindnesses in a manner that has been agreed on by a society to be appropriate. It allows people to interact with more ease because each person knows what is expected. When a society has abandoned chivalry, a new form of behavior has to be adopted, modern post-femintist societies have adopted various degrees of indepence based behaviors. If basic good manners and concern for others are valuable they will persist, if they are devalued they may disappear and perhaps will have to be re-invented in later times.

I think that holding doors open is a good thing - for both males and females
Some folks don't appreciate it though

I appreciate it. I don't think anyone should be rude about these things, why let the door slam them in the face? its soooo much funnier to let it hit em in the arse on the way out!

Just to clarify: I treat people equally. (Weaklings, all of them!!! ;-) )

I hold doors open for people. Independent of gender. It's common courtesy.

I offer seats to the following persons:
- Everyone over the age of 70 (Unless they look like they hike, camp and can outrun me.)
- Pregnant people (again, independent of gender ;-) )
- People with lap babies (Incidentally this is governed by law in Portugal)
- Handicapped people
[s:8e520a345a]- Everyone else I consider inferior to me, especially women.[/s:8e520a345a]

I will offer to carry stuff for women mostly. Not because I'm a chauvinist pig, but because of the following things:
- Usually I'm stronger, so I can offer my strength. (Face it, 99% of the time us cavemen are stronger than you frail ladies)
- Offering to help carry stuff for men is considered bad form, worse than offering a feminist (I can't tell them apart from "normal" women) to carry her stuff. Men will be offended. And as a higher percentage of them is stronger than me... Plus they are carrying something heavy...
[s:8e520a345a]- Women are weak, frail and inferior[/s:8e520a345a]

I went and walked into this joke, now I think that I'm going to slink out of it...

**points finger and chants** Brad is a slinky, Brad is a slinky !! I can't wait to see you go down some steps haha !

Bah, I guess I shouldn't try to be funny with little miss No-sense-of-humour is around bickering at people... :roll:

I can assure you that I get on famously with my maternal parent. We frequently hold discourse over a multitude of subjects. To connotate otherwise makes me suspect that your capitis has been befuddled by pneumonoultramicroscopicsilicovolcanoconiosis.

pneumonoultramicroscopicsilicovolcanoconiosis

I don't care what anyone says, you slept with a dictionary when the ladies turned you down.

Not everyone is as weak as you think! I may not work out much, but I can carry whatever I want to!

Yeah we already established you don't work out, Mr i sit at my PC chatting and have no friends. (except the ones in my head)

Just because I don't work out doesn't make me a wimp! Lugging about computer equipment can be quite strenuous I'll have you know

My friends don't only exist in my head - It seems that you are judging me by your own standards there...

You have standards? i think not. You will be telling me you have morals next.

Lugging? you do "lugging" don't (try and) make me laugh. I bet the only lugging you do is your lunch bag from the floor to your desk at lunch time.

My standards are obviously higher than yours, as I at least try to be chivalrous and considerate to others.
My work does involve some physical labour, but not excessive amounts

Hmmm i think you are mistaking what i said earlier. I actually agreed with your comments on opening doors. I made a slight joke but hey we all make mistakes.
I totally agree that it is common courtesy for a human (male or female) to hold a door open for another, offer seats to people less fortunate and help those again with shopping and the like.

If i ever see you on a bus (as i think you would be too old now for a driving licence) i would let you have my seat, even if you would probably be incontinent and let the next person have the wet patch.

Where do you get the idea that I am old? Just because I have a higher standard of grammar (and apparently morals) than you - doesn't mean that I am old.
Age doesn't have to have any impact on manners and decency.

It has a huge impact on learning Latin though.

Please don't tell me you learnt it for fun you sad little man.

Well to cut in between Missy and Dave who seem intent on not talking to each other face to face but on having a very public and virtual marital spat... Counceling people. Although you can't trust psychologists.

Gentlemen are a rare breed of men and should be studied closely to find out just what genetic malfunction they possess that means that their qualities aren't bred into the wider ppopulation. i am yet to decide if gentlemenliness is something that would be good or not for the species. If you get too much genltemanliness does that mean you lose those attractive bad boy bastards?

As to feminists well the least said the better really.

I haven't specifically learnt latin at all - I just enjoy words. No need for 'relations' with a dictionary - just the ability to use one occasionally

It seems you can't read either Mr Victim as this comment was not made to you. It was aimed at Electric Man.

Never mind. Try again with your glasses on.

Latin's over-rated. As dead languages go we should all learn Mayan and let go of these European prejudices.

Yeah, and bring back those funky human sacrifices with those steep steps... I've already got a couple of ideas of the first victims to apease the gods...

You might just want to tone down the "jesus" quota a bit, buzz, he happens to be an important religious figure for some people. But then you would know that if you had any sensitivity at all in that brain-box of yours...

Oh, so just because she's from France she's a zealot? Do you even know that discrimination is a crime? I'm sure there's nothing Buzz wants more than to stop french people from using "her" public bathrooms, "her" public transports and "her" cinemas.

I said "for some people", buzz, try learning to read before jumping down people's throats, especially when you spend so much of you time obsessively spell-checking everyone here.

I bet your answer phone message goes "Jesus, you people with phones need to back off !"

The Europeans are just so self-absorbed. there not the only ones who had culture a long time ago. Embrace it and you might learn something...

Even if it is religious bigotry.

that as may be all those that do believe in "his holiness" only do so because they have been force fed religious ideals and fictitious stories of gods and men* with some leadership skills about their person. religious figures such as Jesus and God are now used as prefixes to insults and curses which goes to show what people really think of religion: its a nice thing to admire but as soon as the donation basket comes around suddenly we're all short of money.

So why attack Buzz for using Jesus's name in a way that the vast majority of people do? unless your willing to correct every person you hear or see using it then I'd tone down the nit-picking katcal.


*there's a point, when did you ever read about a female prophet? is Christianity not sexiest? the most famous woman in religion is described as the "last temptation of christ", doesn't this lead us to the possibility that sexism is fueled by religion? after all, men and women are equal in paganism but that wasn't good enough for the men of the church eh. As i have already mentioned Christianity was thrust upon most western civilisations meaning that we had no choice but to believe woman were inferior. only in recent years as Christianity has begun to loose its Potency in modern civilisation have we begun to think of woman as equal, or at least on a wider scale.

Off-topic and OOC:

Funniest typo, ever.