"If you take out uncovered meat and place it outside ... and the cats come to eat it ... whose fault is it, the cats' or the uncovered meat's? The uncovered meat is the problem. If she was in her room, in her home, in her hijab, no problem would have occurred." -- Sheik Taj Aldin al Hilali, Australia's subsequently-suspended-from-preaching top Islamic cleric, on immodestly dressed women
The problem with the attitude expressed is the equation of women with meat. Women are not items to be consumed by men, they are human beings.
Meat, as cats eat it, is not normally capable of rational thought either. So all in all, aside from being offensive, it's a pretty crap analogy. It's a case of mistaking women for objects, like Grace said.
[quote:7725ceb735="Buzzfloyd"]Women...are human beings.[/quote:7725ceb735] They are? Ba [i:7725ceb735]knew[/i:7725ceb735] he was treating them too well.
[quote:0bd524b2dd="Garner"]"If you take out uncovered meat and place it outside ... and the cats come to eat it ... whose fault is it, the cats' or the uncovered meat's? The uncovered meat is the problem. If she was in her room, in her home, in her hijab, no problem would have occurred." -- Sheik Taj Aldin al Hilali, Australia's subsequently-suspended-from-preaching top Islamic cleric, on immodestly dressed women[/quote:0bd524b2dd] I heard this a few days ago on the radio... it is actually amazing how many people (not just nutjobs) still believe that rape is a woman's fault. He also completely ignores the fact that, according to American statistics, the majority of rape victims know the rapist, and are either in their own homes of his home when it happens. Also, as well as comparing women to inanimate objects, he is comparing men to animals. Last time I checked, women wanted to be equal to men because men are treated like human beings. Does Mr. Sheik not consider himself, or the men he speaks for, human? But come on, why do we get all the crazy religious leaders? George Pell was already more than enough, without this guy as well.
I wonder if Sheikh Hilali has an explanation for rape in religious Muslim countries such as Saudi Arabia, where I hear women have started to walk around with knives under their extremely modest clothing. Or Iran, where women wear an article of clothing that translates to 'tent'. Probably all down to evil western foreigners or something.
The technical term for the man is 'goose'... Women are meat and men are cats. Neither is capable of rational choice and apparently meat chooses to be unwrapped and cats can't help themselves... What codswallop. Although, there were calls to have the man deported... Until someone pointed out that he was an Australian citizen. Which just makes everyone look silly. Now I am going to lie unwrapped in the sun and wait for a cat to come along...
I agree with the previous assesment that women are not meat. I also agree that it is a conscious choice of the man to make a move on a woman, no matter what their apparel. But, I also get upset when a woman wears not much more than a string for a top with arrows pointing to certain parts of her anotomy and then gets disgusted with guys for staring. I am of a slightly Victorian mindset though. Not to say that I don't admire the attire nor the personage beneath, but I can say for a fact that I would never wear one.
[quote:14d6f2d29c="redneck"]I agree with the previous assesment that women are not meat. I also agree that it is a conscious choice of the man to make a move on a woman, no matter what their apparel. But, I also get upset when a woman wears not much more than a string for a top with arrows pointing to certain parts of her anotomy and then gets disgusted with guys for staring. I am of a slightly Victorian mindset though. Not to say that I don't admire the attire nor the personage beneath, but I can say for a fact that I would never wear one.[/quote:14d6f2d29c] Well I always stand by the view, that knowing as we do that we live in a sick society and men will rape and hurt, that there are things women can do to protect themselves. If you wear clothes designed to get attention, you will get attention. If you let men you don't trust into your home when nobody else is around, you are taking a risk. The same goes for entering his house. That is not to say that those who don't take those precautions are at fault; it is always the man's perogative not to rape. Especially seeing as most rapes are committed at home by an aquaintance, and the victims are usually poor young urban teenagers who aren't likely to be in a position to protect themselves or get adequate legal representation. But covering yourself in honey and walking through bear-infested woods isn't the smartest idea in the world.
Bloody cats. Actually, I have known cats to steal not only meat that was lying unprotected (actually, I have never known a cat do that) but also crisps, cakes, surimi, avocados, and cucumbers slices. Cats are stupid when it comes to stealing food.
[quote:29b41e5f77="Andalusian"]But come on, why do we get all the crazy religious leaders? George Pell was already more than enough, without this guy as well.[/quote:29b41e5f77] Ah come on now, be fair, your certainly not alone in the crazy preacher stakes, there's two particular charmers currently inciting hatred against all things western, from the very heart of London(though finally one of them was locked up for inciting murder). Abu Hamza and Abu Izzadeen. Think most folk in the UK have heard of them and for any who havent, a quick google search will turn up a good number of topics on the unpleasant pairing. As for Sheikh Hilali, while of course I find the statement pathetic and wrong for all the reasons listed above, it's his empty apology showing his continuing belief in the statement in the face of the world's revulsion that really demonstrates how vile this person is.
This Particular brand of abhorrant stupidity is not restricted to the muslim faith. Its just that the Muslim faith is very fashionable with these type of people at the moment. An English Judge was well known about 20 years ago for saying something very similar to this and to our utter shame he remained a judge afterwards and was not disbarred.... Judge Pickles was his name. Now using a cat analogy... I mean how stupid is that! For a start Cats dont follow any rules at all let alone human ones. All food belongs to the nearest cat...fact!
[quote:97bb3ffef5="RebelwithoutaPause"] All food belongs to the nearest cat...fact![/quote:97bb3ffef5] Even if that food is currently in a plastic wrapper. On a table. Next to a pan. We didn't have much meat for lunch that day.
[quote:b198fb7c9a="Roman_K"][quote:b198fb7c9a="RebelwithoutaPause"] All food belongs to the nearest cat...fact![/quote:b198fb7c9a] Even if that food is currently in a plastic wrapper. On a table. Next to a pan. We didn't have much meat for lunch that day.[/quote:b198fb7c9a] How totally unimaginative of you. Cat steak for pete's sake !
[quote:133c6bf706="redneck"]I agree with the previous assesment that women are not meat. I also agree that it is a conscious choice of the man to make a move on a woman, no matter what their apparel. But, I also get upset when a woman wears not much more than a string for a top with arrows pointing to certain parts of her anotomy and then gets disgusted with guys for staring. I am of a slightly Victorian mindset though. Not to say that I don't admire the attire nor the personage beneath, but I can say for a fact that I would never wear one.[/quote:133c6bf706] Yes, but that's a different issue, Nate. Rape is [b:133c6bf706]not[/b:133c6bf706] about sexuality, it is about power and domination. A woman dressed as you describe is asking for sexual attention. If she says she isn't, she's stupid, naive or lying. That is [b:133c6bf706]not[/b:133c6bf706] the same as asking to be raped. A woman who dresses in skimpy clothing and then gets upset [i:133c6bf706]when she receives sexual attention[/i:133c6bf706] is probably in the wrong. A woman who dresses in skimpy clothing and then gets upset [i:133c6bf706]when she is raped[/i:133c6bf706] has been wronged. (Although, by the way, if a woman asks a man to stop giving her sexual attention, there is nothing wrong with that, regardless of what clothes she's wearing - she may be looking for attention, but not necessarily to that degree or from that person.) Now, Nate, maybe you think women shouldn't wear skimpy clothing (and presumably you think the same about men). Or maybe, like me, you think they shouldn't be so hypocritical or idiotic as to object to attention they receive because of it. But that has nothing to do with rape. As a male falling within a certain age bracket, you are more likely to get attacked and beaten up than older men or women of the same age as you. Is that fair? Of course not. You can't help your gender or age. If you're sensible, you'll avoid dangerous places and situations. But if you decide to go to a bar one evening and enjoy yourself - putting yourself in a very dangerous situation, in terms of where you're most likely to get attacked - and a gang of thugs beats you up, is it your fault for going into the bar? Of course not. When we talk about rape, we are talking about the same thing as in that situation. This is an act of aggression and violence, not of sexuality. To suggest that women offer themselves as rape victims by dressing a certain way misses the point and quietly condones the mindset that sees women only as meat. I know that's not what you were saying, Nate, but we have to remember that rape and sex are two different acts entirely.
[quote:f07b5f09a3="Buzzfloyd"]Rape is [b:f07b5f09a3]not[/b:f07b5f09a3] about sexuality, it is about power and domination. [/quote:f07b5f09a3] Exactly. This is why, in a country where every woman is forced by law to wear a [i:f07b5f09a3]tent[/i:f07b5f09a3], women still get raped.
[quote:321c241173="Hsing"]That was another great post by Buzzfloyd, and a good point by Roman.[/quote:321c241173] Although I agree, I think Andalusian said the same thing about a page ago.
Devils Advocate time. :evil: *disclaimer - I play Devils Advocate often...I dont neccesarily believe the drivel I'm about to come out with I just cant help trying to look at arguements from every side... my friends say Im just obstroporous but Im not sure this is even a real word yet alone what it means. Buzz your point is excellent and yes very true. But it misses a fundamental point. Yes rape is about power but it is still a sexual act being commited and so choice of victim can still be made based on appearences. Im no psychologist as will become obvious from my ramblings but surely some rapists commit the act through a sense of frustration as well as a need for power. Unnatractive or socially inadequate men who feel frustrated when they see these attractive women parading around semi naked but paying no attention to them must surely be a catalyst for the act of rape? Yes they want to have power over these women to alleviate their own innadequacies but surely they will often choose the victim on appearences. There is also the other type of rapist that I'm sure exists.... drunken out of control. People I have come to realise are generally not a nice bunch. Groups of young men mixed with alchohol equals lowest form of life. Drunken louts attack everything and want to "own" everything.. they resort to the worst aspects of our caveman origins and a semi naked woman is a major "prize". Gang rape happens, and it will most likely happen to a women who draws the attention of the "mob" through her appearence. The arguement then about women in countries wearing lots of clothing still being raped.... its a culture thing init! In an arabic country where the women is covered head to toe.... if one of them was to flash a bit of ankle....... thats probably equivalent to going topless in the west! Ive rambled that much Ive forgotten my point.............. Oh yes... Rape is is not allways about power it can also be about lust and lack of self control. Even when it is about power its still fuelled by a sexual desire and so often the most "attractive" or "unattainable" target may be picked. Ok now I feel dirty and Im going to go and have a wash
[quote:d2613c5cfc="RebelwithoutaPause"]Devils Advocate time. :evil: *disclaimer - I play Devils Advocate often...I dont neccesarily believe the drivel I'm about to come out with I just cant help trying to look at arguements from every side... ([/quote:d2613c5cfc] The problem with playing Devils Advocate is that it kind of implies that you believe that the other people in the debate haven't already looked at all sides of the argument before coming to their conclusions. It's a bit condescending, as it implies that you think you know more than the other people about all of the aspects of the subject involved, or that the other people don't know how to think critically and you are going to teach them how to do so - the way I see it, anyway. We'd much rather hear about the conclusions that you've drawn after looking at all sides of the argument.
I agree with Marcia. This is a message board, not a debating club where it's sometimes clear that the partakers don't necessarily stand behind the viewpoints they defend because they discuss mainly for the sake of discussing, and regardless of the content. I have no choice but treat the viewpoints you post as yours, because in this context, nothing else really works. Besides, "I'll just play the devil's advocate" is often used as an excuse when someone actually does express their opinion, but feels on shaky ground withit. I'm not saying that's what you are doing, but I hope you understand that such a preface does not make all readers treat all you write as your hypothetical opinion. Besides that, all the scenarios you described can be very well explained with what Andalusian, Buzzfloyd, and Roman said. It doesn't need lust to turn someone into a rapist, it needs whatever makes you think of someone as a "thing" when you look at a person. With your ankle-flashing example, you almost turn your theory ad absurdum yourself. It is so telling that in interrelationships where a woman is regarded as possession, no matter how worthy, these things happen as well, and according to several NGO's reports, not at all less often. Your argumentation also implies that under the "right" circumstances, the discriminating saying would be true after all - that there's a rapist in every man, at least of a certain age range, if enough frustration, alcohol, peer pressure and arousal add. That's something I don't believe.
First off then I owe an apology to anyone Ive offended. By stating before hand I was taking the path of Devils advocate I thought I was being clear that I was debating the points rather than putting forth my own views. Im new to the board and other boards Ive frequented this kind of conversation is usually a debate. Hopefully Ill remain welcome around here long enough not to make the mistake again. One thing you where right about though although it came across as a veiled insult even with your disclaimer was the insinuation that the arguement was in fact my own belief rather than that of a point being made academically purely for debatings sake. It didnt start out that way but what has happened is that in taking the time to try and articulate my thoughts on the situation I managed to clarify my own view for myself. In other words I used the post to debate the point for my own benefit. I think. Two points to make before I sign off and hopefully Ill do it without getting anyone's back up. [quote:2a03f9b228][i:2a03f9b228]"It doesn't need lust to turn someone into a rapist, it needs whatever makes you think of someone as a "thing" when you look at a person"[/i:2a03f9b228][/quote:2a03f9b228] [quote:2a03f9b228][i:2a03f9b228]"Rape is not about sexuality, it is about power and domination."[/i:2a03f9b228][/quote:2a03f9b228] These are the two points that I disagree with. Everything else I read in Buzz's post actually make my point better than I can. But this one comment from her and the other from Hsing are what I disagree with.... not in the meanings but in the absoluteness of them. We try so hard to understand why things happen that we categorise everything and life is not that simple. [quote:2a03f9b228][i:2a03f9b228]"Your argumentation also implies that under the "right" circumstances, the discriminating saying would be true after all - that there's a rapist in every man, at least of a certain age range, if enough frustration, alcohol, peer pressure and arousal add. That's something I don't believe."[/i:2a03f9b228][/quote:2a03f9b228] Another Absolute! No not every man is capable..how do I know this I cant know the hearts of everyman?.. Well I can look into the darkest deepest pit of my own heart and ask myself the question. So, no I dont believe everyman is capable of rape.... but some therefore too many are and not everyone of them for the same reasons. Lust and not the need for power can be the cause of some rapes..and some is too many. I believe a women should have the freedom to dress as she pleases, I dont however think it is allways safe to do so. This point is debated much clearer in Buzz's post so Ill just leave it at that. Last point....sorry I know I go on. [i:2a03f9b228][quote:2a03f9b228]With your ankle-flashing example, you almost turn your theory ad absurdum yourself.[/quote:2a03f9b228][/i:2a03f9b228] Not sure what you mean by this. Are you suggesting my example is absurd? If so have you read any Jane Austen or other literature from that period? I made a big assumption with the example as I honestly know nothing about Arabic countries and the Muslim faith. But I assumed that the way in which they make the women cover up would effect the men in the same way as it did back in the Regency period. Ok Ill end with a final apology and I hope we didnt get off on the wrong foot and I hope you can come to accept me for just being an argumentative sod who isnt really any harm to anyone.
Here's some American statistics... Women as Victims of Violent Crime Just to counter RebelwithoutaPause's apparent views that clothing make a great deal of difference in rape. Also, I also don't believe that it is within every man or even most men. To be able to rape, and to be able to be turned on by a degraded woman, the man must have little respect for the woman as a human being. Even if the man feels frustrated at a woman's lack of interest, the act of rape is a power issue. He feels slighted by her, and wants to hurt her and prove that he can control her. Even if rape is about sexuality, this is not a normal or healthy sexuality. Rape is getting pleasure out of power. If the rapist is unable to get pleasure out of power, he is unable to rape. It can't not be a power issue. He is able to have his way with a struggling, protesting woman, often through brute force and threats. This is in no way related to normal sexuality. Only peripherally there can be an issue of sexuality, as the man is expressing his dominance through the ability to force sexual contact. But the sexual aspect is only a means of showing power. It needn't be related to actual lust or attraction. Also, men should be able to control themselves. I've said this before, but it is the man's perogative not to rape. A woman's body is not a sexual object, and she should not be told to hide it in case an animalistic man loses control. It is only abusive men who make a woman's body an object. We are actually human beings, funnily enough. Finally, do you think that a woman who wears a small t-shirt and mini-shorts because it is a 35C+ Australian summer is taking a risk? I think she's more at risk of heatstroke if she doesn't.
As for my last comment, I wasn't speaking of women being raped, but rather them treating themselves as pieces of meat and then being bewildered when others view them as such. My last sentence was meant to be farcical. I would never submit myself or anyone else to the visual torture of me wearing any kind of skimpy clothing. *shudders*
Rebel, no worries. We do a lot of discussion on this board - which means that if you try to make an argument like you just did, you can expect people to tear it to pieces. Andalusian has said all I feel needed to be said in response to your comments. It wasn't my opinion, but the pervasive scientific understanding of the psychology of rape that says it's a power issue, not a lust issue. As Andalusian says, rape can only happen when there is psychology of power and control in play. (I believe there are other, minor schools of thought on rape, but they tend to be espoused by mentally ill misogynists like Dave Sim).
An analogy: A poor man sees a another man walking down the street, wearing an expensive suit. The poor man wishes he could afford to have a suit like that - lust issue. A poor man sees another man walking down the street, wearing an expensive suit. The poor man robs the other man - power issue.
Heard a good quote about this on the Glass House (Australian political humour - just got axed ). "If women are really uncovered meat, then why doesn't Shane Warne have salmonella?" Completely off the current topic, but I thought it was funny.
[quote:9e7c52eb7b]Even if rape is about sexuality, this is not a normal or healthy sexuality. Rape is getting pleasure out of power. If the rapist is unable to get pleasure out of power, he is unable to rape. It can't not be a power issue. He is able to have his way with a struggling, protesting woman, often through brute force and threats. This is in no way related to normal sexuality. Only peripherally there can be an issue of sexuality, as the man is expressing his dominance through the ability to force sexual contact. But the sexual aspect is only a means of showing power. It needn't be related to actual lust or attraction. [/quote:9e7c52eb7b] I must say this has given me serious pause for thought. I thought I understood what was meant by Rape being about power but after reading that I can only assume I didnt think it through thoroughly previously. Maybe I'm completly wrong? I still cant help but think that a a skimpily dressed woman is going to attract a rapist (opportunist type of rapist rather than serial) more than a normally dressed woman. ( Im in work so cant follow your link with the statistics, this is one of the few websites that I can access.) Surely whilst the act of rape is as youve so eloquently put a matter of power lust can still be a catalyst? Something that will affect how a victim is chosen? If your statistics dispute this then what can I say.. my opinion is wrong.
[quote:deb4da7504="Garner"]who's shane warne?[/quote:deb4da7504] He is the man who will be remembered as either... One of the greatest cricketeers in history. Or The man who captained the side that lost the Ashes to England for the first time in....lots of years. I fall into the second category to be honest as I dont really like cricket but you couldnt avoid it when England won the Ashes.
[quote:816992e877="RebelwithoutaPause"]I still cant help but think that a a skimpily dressed woman is going to attract a rapist (opportunist type of rapist rather than serial) more than a normally dressed woman. ( Im in work so cant follow your link with the statistics, this is one of the few websites that I can access.) Surely whilst the act of rape is as youve so eloquently put a matter of power lust can still be a catalyst? Something that will affect how a victim is chosen? If your statistics dispute this then what can I say.. my opinion is wrong.[/quote:816992e877] Innumerable studies have shown that clothing has nothing to do with it. An opportunist rapist will pick on a woman who looks like a victim - in the most basic terms, this has to do with how her behaviour, speech and (particularly) body language patterns demonstrate her lack of confidence. When questioned about how they chose their victims, rapists rarely mentioned clothes. Since most rapes are carried out by people known to the victim, I think it becomes increasingly clear that clothing has nothing to do with it.
wow....what a way to make my entrance.... if people want to liken women to meat, then they can go back to the 16th century [quote:b2a669d0be="Buzzfloyd"]The problem with the attitude expressed is the equation of women with meat. Women are not items to be consumed by men, they are human beings.[/quote:b2a669d0be]
[quote:b835fd0c39="del74"]wow....what a way to make my entrance.... if people want to liken women to meat, then they can go back to the 16th century [quote:b835fd0c39="Buzzfloyd"]The problem with the attitude expressed is the equation of women with meat. Women are not items to be consumed by men, they are human beings.[/quote:b835fd0c39][/quote:b835fd0c39] We you meaning to comment on that quote, or were you using it to back up your point?
You know, this thread seems as good a place as any to write about this... A few months ago now, Hermia and I were subjected to a (mild?) sexual assault. A man followed us all the way up the main road at about 10pm one night. I knew he was there, but thought from how slowly he was moving that he was just drunk or stoned - not that uncommon round here. However, just before we left a secluded stretch of pavement and entered the brightly lit shopping area near Hermia's home, we saw his shadow appear over our shoulders. So we both moved aside to let him pass - but he didn't pass, he just stayed behind us. So I looked round and saw that he was just starting to ejaculate, and trying to do so onto us. My response was to swear at him and step aside, while Hermia shot ahead. I then ended up doing a full circle around him before walking faster to catch up with Hermia. We soon left him behind and carried on to her house none the worse for wear. At the time I was mostly just surprised and angry. However, since then there has been a difference. I never used to feel scared out in the streets on my own. Most of the time, I still don't. But there have been a few occasions since then when I have ended up with a man walking fast towards me from behind (usually to overtake or get across the road before an approaching car is too near). When this happens, I find it hard not to panic. I am suddenly afraid that the man is approaching me, and I want to look round to check what he's doing, but I don't want him to know I'm checking. And I'm really angry that some stupid wanker (literally) has shaken my confidence in this way.
Whoa. Knowing the guy has been run over by a train on his way home would be nice. I hope the -delayed- shock wears off and that both of you are going to be alright. I wouldn't even call this a "mild" assault. I don't think I have to explain that. That you should feel less safer in what is your home terrain is a shame, and actually a pretty sick situation. That bloody perv... I know many women who almost lock themselves up in prevention, relying on other people to drive them, or pick them up, instead of doing a 15 minutes walk, not walking if they feel the need for fresh air when it's already dark, and so on. When I was -far less agressively- molested by a slightly drunken guy I met on a walking path in the forest near my parent's house -he saw me approaching, stood in my way, tried to grab my arm suggested, amongst other things, I take a walk into the woods with him with a leering grin- my parent's reaction when I came home and told them was "Well, why are you running around in the forests so much?". I was twelve back then, and already thought: A) Thanks, Pa. That was really encouraging. And B): because I don't want to live like that. I know it's easily said, but please don't change your behaviour in the long run. If you do, get a doberman. * Don't know if I put this into words well. *The doberman then being the only change, i mean.
Damn Grace (and Hermia) that's... awful. **hug** Although it's something quite different, I have felt the change in my reaction to being driven around especially at night after having had a car accident, which I guess is the same sort of self-protective reaction... I agree with Hsing, it is hard but try to work towards getting back to your normal behaviour. If it makes you feel better, carry something around with you that will make you feel safer, I don't know if thos pepper sprays are still legal in England, or even if it's just a "talisman" sort of thing, as long as it makes you feel more confident. Japanese women are said to carry black lucky cats (Maneki Neko) around as they protect from all kinds of harm and especially agression. The main thing is that you find something that will help you. And again, Hsing is right, this isn't "mild" if it hurts your self confidence.
I suppose it really puts a new spin on it for you when you've been personally involved in something like that. That is an awful experience to go through.
and you know, that event happened the ONE time i wasn't being insanely paranoid and worrying if it was safe for grace (and in this case, hermia) to be out after dark without an escort. i remember thinking 'ah, she'll be fine. quit being such an anxious git.' then grace gets home a bit later and i curse the irony gods for months afterwards.
It's hard tp prevent at least a tiny superstitious part of you from thinking that things like that happen because you let your guard down. At least I always felt that way. It's rubbish though...
Cairo street crowds target women [img:02b0199de9]http://static.flickr.com/107/288332866_ad7af56956.jpg[/img:02b0199de9] Second Muslim cleric joins row in Australia over women and rape Grace, Hermia, that was an awful thing to happen to you. Being considered a target for unwanted sexual attentions just for existing is an awful feeling. The guy probably had some brain damage or other, and I hope you can put this behind you very soon.
[quote:145873917d="Buzzfloyd"]But there have been a few occasions since then when I have ended up with a man walking fast towards me from behind (usually to overtake or get across the road before an approaching car is too near). When this happens, I find it hard not to panic. I am suddenly afraid that the man is approaching me, and I want to look round to check what he's doing, but I don't want him to know I'm checking.[/quote:145873917d] I suspect I occationally cause panic in the night time streets of Stockholm. I don't think I appear to be a nice guy on first glance, on the contrary I think my appearance can be somewhat frightening in the dark. And I notice if I'm walking home from the subway and there's a girl a couple of meters in front of me how they sometimes seem nervous. So what do I do? I can't really catch up to her and say "hey don't worry I'm just on my way home", which I think would only make things worse (and probably risk a preventive knee in my groin or my face sprayed with mace). Most often when in these situations, I speed up to overtake her. Which I realise now must frighten the living daylight out of the poor little things, but at least once I've passed I think she'll feel better than having me a few steps behind her. If it's possible, I'll cross the road and pass her on the other side of the street. I hate feeling guilty of scaring someone on my way home to my apartment, and I dislike that I have to adapt my route or speed just because the world is littered with idiot men. I also dislike how I, because I'm a man and a lot of men are idiots, and also because I happen to look like a stereotype of Sweden's organised crime, is suspected of being a rapist.
Heh, you have my full sympathy there KK, I'm often in a similar situation. I live in an area which is pretty run down and standing at 6'3" I often have people crossing roads and breaking into runs whenever they see me marching up the road behind them if it's late night. It's none too pleasant having such baseless negative assumptions being made of you but I can understand why so I dont begrudge them. Best way I've found not to be taken for a potential loony/rapist is wear light coloured clothes. When I'm ambling along in beige trousers, a rugby shirt and carrying a bag of shopping I get much less worried looks than black jacket, hands buried in pockets and shoulders hunched.
[quote:7de96d2778="Watchman"]Best way I've found not to be taken for a potential loony/rapist is wear light coloured clothes. When I'm ambling along in beige trousers, a rugby shirt and carrying a bag of shopping I get much less worried looks than black jacket, hands buried in pockets and shoulders hunched.[/quote:7de96d2778] That's not as daft as it sounds... but still... never take this too far and dress up as a clown. Clowns scare the hell out of all sane people, even in broad daylight. Especially in broad daylight actually. KK I am so dissapointed, I thought that pirate outfit was for real ! I'm sure it would be less scary... unless of course you taught your parrot to say something creepy...
this is how I dress in the winter time. On this particular occasion, I replaced the parrot with another bird. One of these days, I'm going to photoshop away those washing tags on my scarf.
Actually, that is probably the best disguise so as not to be taken for a potential mugger/rapist/looney... Always have a girl with you
I've read about an interesting story regarding this subject. I can't find the story now but basically it was a case where a man had sex with a woman. She had had too much to drink and said there was no way she would of consented to have sex with the man. He claims that she was consenting. I think it is interesting becuase I think it could be a case where both people are genuine. Where she *really* feels like she has been raped and he genuninelly feels like he had consenting sex.
I see Kaptain's point. Only in a different way. Sometimes, the elderly will seem to be quite nervous when I'm passing them (it doesn't even have to be night-time, either). It gets me so annoyed that these people cannot walk the streets without fearing for themselves.
I would be frightened too, if a drunk monkey passed me on the street. But seriously, in regards to Rinso's post I have a question: Did the guy know she was drunk? If so, than he should not have had sex with her, consenting or not. Especailly if it's a first time. That said, women who get drunk and have sex with guys and yell rape later is....um..different. I think that some women yell rape after a night of drunken sex to quell the guilt. I'm not saying all women in that situation do, but sometimes there are other motives for a woman to claim rape. Does this make sense? I think that 'date rape' when the woman is not drunk and the man forcibley has sex with her is just as bad as some guy on the street raping a girl. I think it might possibley be even more frightening for the woman, as this is obviously someone who knows her, and her name etc and the likelyhood of reprocussions from telling the cops or someone would be higher. I think that there are a lot of unreported rapes. I think for a veriaty of reasons woman don't want to report. I think that this gives a bad name because then alot of the gal's you get reporting rape are the Kobe Bryant type cases. (I'm not saying that Kobe Bryant didn't rape that woman, it was just very obvious that if he wasn't Kobe Bryant that woman never would have said anything) Anyway, I'm rambling now.
Poor Grace and Hermia... A friend of mine who was living in Indonesia had a similar thing happen to her... 6 times. Western women in less developed parts of Indonesia (and other parts of S-E Asia) are taken as fair game by the men. The term is "two-second love", western media, ie TV and movies, have given the men in these countries the impression that if you are a white woman you are easy (by their standards of modesty and sexual norms) and that you'll sleep with anyone at the drop of a hat. So against this background, my friend kept having guys wanking her in the street. She was with another girl once and they hit the guy with an umbrella to make him go away. Another time the guy was on a motorcycle doing a driveby wanking, and he kept circling back to them. Its all a bit freaky. I had a guy in Kuching Malaysia follow me home one day without me realising it (it wasn't that late, just after dinner and I was going home to pick up some stuff before going out again). This guys come up in the secluded stairwell behind our apartment and tried to grab my head and force me to kiss him. I was a foot taller so I could puch hiom away but then he got a good hard grip on my wrist and asked me for money. I chucked just over a ringgit (50cents Aus) down the stairs and he let go. I ran the rest of the way up the stairs and desparately tried to get the door open before the guy followed. The weird thing for me though is that throughout all of this I was more worried about missing my friends who were picking me up than what the guy was doing. If the world was amore dangerous place I think I have the survival instincts of a sitting duck. But you can't live your entire life in fear otherwise you'd never do anything. Its all calculated risk. And no one ever wanked at me in Malaysia.
Grace, Hermia, you have my sympathies. I can only echo others and say that that is a horrible experience. Same with Spiky. Having a potential rapist just down the stairs is *not* cool.
[quote:a33e511fd1="OmKranti"]I would be frightened too, if a drunk monkey passed me on the street. [/quote:a33e511fd1]I'd be pleased, myself.
Whenever it's late and dark and just because i'm a big guy (wich i am, 1.95 m and over 100 kilo's), i'm a potential rapist? That sucks.
[quote:aa7622cb36="Hobbes"]Whenever it's late and dark and just because i'm a big guy (wich i am, 1.95 m and over 100 kilo's), i'm a potential rapist? That sucks.[/quote:aa7622cb36] No, but you would be if you lived downstairs from spiky. Hang on, is it just me or is this whole thread going a little wahoonie shaped ? :? Hobbes, you are not whatever size and shape you are, however, if you happened to be walking in the dark just behind a woman on her own, then she could understandably feel rather aprehensive of your presence. Even more so if she got a glimpse of a larger/stronger figure who could easily overpower her if the said person was to be a threat. It's to do with circumstances, not people.
[quote:b22d067877="Hobbes"]Whenever it's late and dark and just because i'm a big guy (wich i am, 1.95 m and over 100 kilo's), i'm a potential rapist? That sucks.[/quote:b22d067877] No. Nobody, at any point, has said that. Where did you get this from? Thanks, everyone, for your sympathy and advice. One of the things that annoys me most about this is that I know the men who frighten me are not dangerous. In twenty-five years of walking around this town (with one of the highest levels of violent crime in the south of England) including after dark, at pub-closing time and in dangerous areas, this is the only event of this nature I've been through. One old guy saw me look over my shoulder when he crossed the road and came up right behind me in the dark - he apologised for scaring me and said he understood why I had to look round in 'this day and age'. KK, Drunky, Hobbes - it is not your responsibility to stop people from feeling scared when you are acting normally. If a girl is frightened, it's not your fault - and I'm sure she, like me, would indeed feel relief when you overtake her if you were walking up behind her. It's sad that the girl feels frightened, but it has no more to do with you than it has to do with me. I'm not a victim by nature, and my instinct immediately following that assault was annoyance that the guy took up valuable talking time in Hermia's and my busy schedule! I even thought it was quite funny, in a darkly humorous way. This is why I thought it was worth discussing, because I didn't expect to be affected like this. However, what I thought was interesting was a point that came up when I was discussing this with Garner the other day. I was interested by Drunky's remark that it puts a different spin on things when something like this happens to someone you know, because I don't think that's true - for women. I think all women know what it is to be thought of as no more than 'meat'. Rape is always a potential reality for women, whether it ever happens to them or not. I think rape is far more theoretical for men, until it happens to someone they know (or, indeed, them). What does anyone else think?
