Pregnant? British? Here's some healthy food money!

Discussion in 'BOARDANIA' started by Roman_K, Sep 9, 2007.

  1. Hsing Moderator

    Do you know about that widely praised book, "The world without humans" or something like that? In it, cats are said to be the only pet species that would survive in the long run, because their instincts -if you want to call it that- are still intact enough. All others would go extinct, with rare exceptions, when the predators of the animal world returned.

    I don't know wether to divide between human emotions and an animal's or not. I think it is artificial, but I still wouldn't deem animal as respnsible for their "cruel" actions as a human being.
  2. Maljonic Administrator

    I don't think many animals could be, though I have no proof of that, but I'm sure humans aren't the only animals that feel responsible for their action.
  3. Hsing Moderator

    Me too. Everyone who found their dog hiding in almost unaccassible corners under the bed, or looking sideways as if they'd start to whistle innocently at any moment, when they come home to find their slippers torn to pieces behind the doorway would think so.
  4. Katcal I Aten't French !

    Absolutely, returning to cats, they sometimes know damn well they've done something "wrong" (i.e. peed specifically on the clothes of the person they have a grudge against, meaning "you forgot to clean my litter today") and you can tell they know it, because cats can smirk, or suck up to you, or try to get things out of you by being cute, or even just stay out of the way when they realize you're about to find the peed-on clothes. :cool:
  5. Marcia Executive Onion

    Guilt is the acknowledgement that you have done something wrong, that is, you have broken a rule.

    To feel guilt, you would have to have:

    1. An environment where you are supposed to follow rules. I think this would apply to any animal that is part of a social group.

    2. The knowledge that you are an individual entity, and that you have the ability to do things out of your own volition, including break rules.

    I think there are a number of mammals, and probably birds, that would qualify.
  6. Pepster New Member

    Absolutely, there have been many studies showing that animals (mostly chimps and other apes) are capable of various emotions (there has been a recent study showing that animals feel spite).

    Typically the results of them are the bloody obvious.

    I feel I should clarify my earlier statement made in my rant:
    I meant to refer to the capacity of animals to commit acts of meaningless cruelity compared to humans.

    Edit: capasity to capacity.
  7. Buzzfloyd Spelling Bee

    To take the other side of the argument from everyone else... I'm not convinced that humans commit acts of meaningless cruelty. Lots of humans behave badly, but there is always a reason behind it, even if it is a complicated one to do with their upbringing. It would depend on how you're defining the terms, really.
  8. Garner Great God and Founding Father

    I had a friend once who was always breaking plans and canceling dates at the last minute. I would get upset and angry, and she would say "I don't like it when you get upset, it makes me feel guilty."

    I'm not sure what 'guilt' is, but I'm pretty sure it requires a bit of a personal acknowledgement to even exist. It necessitates a larger social understanding, and I don't believe a person can 'make' another feel guilty unless they have a reason to feel guilty in the first place.

    When I was young, I had a puppy and a rabbit at the same time. This can be a bad combination, particularly when the puppy grows to be about six times the rabbit's size, and still likes to play with the rabbit. So the rabbit died, and the dog obviously felt bad about it. When the rabbit was discovered, it had been licked repeatedly, its fur in lots of tiny little cowlicks. The dog was very distraught.

    Some years later, we had a farm. On the wilds around this farm, there were rabbit warrens. Occasionally, the dog would bring a baby rabbit to us. Live. It took me years to realize what was happening, but the dog was trying to bring a new bunny back to replace the one that was lost. Now, at the time that she would do this, I would get very angry with the dog for hurting a little baby bunny. It was maybe four or five years after we'd had to put the dog down that I realized. I didn't cry when we had to put her down. I got a little teary eyed some days later when listening to a rather emotional song. But when the sudden epiphany hit that she'd felt guilty all those years, that she was trying to make good on a tragic accident, I'm pretty sure there was at least a bit of water works going on.

    So, I believe that domesticated animals can feel guilt, whatever that may be. But I've also seen dogs go ferral. Dogs and cats both can survive in a ferral state. Dogs and cats can both understand rewards and punishments (cats, in particular, understand punishing people). I had a cat once who would sleep on my bed with me. One night she had to go, and we didn't have a litter box (dad wouldn't let me put one inside). The cat managed to nudge the door open enough to squeeze out of my room, and found an out of the way place to go. I've heard of other cats who, in similar situations will use a bathtub. They don't want to foul where they sleep, but they also want to avoid making a mess where they see us bipeds doing stuff.

    I don't think that domesticated socialization, be it animal or human or humanimal, precludes instinct or predator/prey survival. But its a bit moot, really, as we all know only cockroaches are really going to be able to make it in the long run.
  9. Hsing Moderator

  10. Pepster New Member

    Cockroaches are actually very vulnerable to common types of bacteria if it gets past their exoskeleton, I've seen them dead within 48 hour to e coli bacteria.

    So while they may survive our demise as a species, I would not be suprised if they are done in by a "super-strain" of bacteria.
  11. Maljonic Administrator

    I don't really know how long a cockroach normally lives for, but often with smaller short-lived creatures they evolve very quickly and adapt to their environment and bacteria.
  12. Hsing Moderator

    They prosper in a moderate climate, though, which is provided all around a year -if nowhwere else, then in buildings- by humanity. They wouldn't be as wide spread anymore after humanities theoretical downfall, if some areas experienced a few hard winters without any human to turn on the heater.
  13. chrisjordan New Member


    Since when did this board have so many cockroach experts?
  14. Katcal I Aten't French !

    Well, you know, it's a bit like Godwin. Start a thread on any subject and sooner or later, you'll end up discussing cockroach mating rituals... Or grammar.
  15. Maljonic Administrator

    Oh come off it you Nazi!
  16. Katcal I Aten't French !

    And thus, Mal crossed that fated line and fell into oblivion :D
  17. Buzzfloyd Spelling Bee

    Bump! (Ho ho.) Remember this topic and all its winding sub-conversations?

    I feel well qualified to talk about this having now experienced being pregnant in this country.

    From the moment you discover you are pregnant, you get bombarded with information about healthy diet and lifestyle till you're sick to death of it. No pregnant woman in this country can avoid being educated on what constitutes healthy eating. But it is still very tempting to cut back on food spending when the day-to-day cost of living is so expensive (especially at the moment).

    When I first read this thread, Roman's comment that "most of these women can afford healthy food" seemed fair to me. That was before discovering first hand the way pregnancy disrupts your working life (and despite laws regarding fair treatment of pregnant employees, there are still serious problems for many women, not to mention those who are self-employed and therefore don't get paid if they don't work, like me), the amount of cash you need to have upfront (which Garner and I won't have until retirement age, if then) in preparing for a child, and how difficult it can be to get the right food at all. Not to mention how the cost of accommodation, heating, food etc is soaring compared with wages.

    On paper, Garner and I have enough money. In practice, we are barely keeping our heads above water a lot of the time. 'Poorer' people than us are absolutely fine, because they are on benefits and can claim for all kinds of means-tested help that we can't get. I can now apply for the £190 grant, because it is not means-tested and any UK-resident pregnant mother can get it once she's at least 25 weeks pregnant. Now, this money is going to go first of all towards paying bills; which means that I will be able to spend the money I earn later this month on our food shopping, without worrying and trying to cut corners. So I for one am seriously glad that they are giving this money to all pregnant women and that they aren't just giving vouchers. I know that our situation is far from unusual. Thank God for Gordon Brown! (I can say it if I like, Pixel. ;) )

    Now, some might say that we shouldn't have a child if we can't afford it. I take the point, but I think that most people in this country will never be able to afford to have a child without government support.

    Anyway, remembering that this grant existed and discovering that I can apply for it has lifted me out of a black hole of despair. So I thought you might be interested to hear an updated opinion on the subject.
  18. Garner Great God and Founding Father

    £190, huh...

    Okay people, i have two very important announcements to make.

    1) I'm about to have a Wii Fit

    2) I need somewhere to live

    (yes i'm only kidding. please don't kill me honey.)
  19. mowgli New Member

    Grace, you welfare queen you! I KNOW you just had the kid in order to get the extra cash, which is now going to be stolen most barbarously out of a working man's pocket. And when you run out of money, you'll go ahead and have another kid to supplement it! You should go to jail for having a kid you can't afford. Why didn't you marry an oil baron, like a good girl should?

    ::stops to take a breath and to unglue eyeballs from being rolled too far up::
  20. Hsing Moderator

    :D*lol* @ Mowgli

    But I occasionally do have to remind people, in one of those side tracking discussions you get caught up while talking to neighbours etc, that one of the reasons such benefits exist is that most middle class people pay in more than they get out of the system, and the same is, of course, expected of their offspring one day. :wink:
    (Its incredible how the people I chat with at the bakery shop still diss "small" people, people out of work or having more than two children, for getting soooo much tax money while said people carry home this morning's newspapers telling them were the billions really go, and how bankers still pay each other million Euro boni by the end of the year.)
  21. Buzzfloyd Spelling Bee

    LOL, Mowgli!

    Yeah, Garner's!
  22. TamyraMcG Active Member

    I can't believe I missed this whole thread, but looking back I was sort of busy at the time. My parents get a monthly payment for being foster parents to their great grandchildren, I believe the state will be getting child support from my nephew but likely not from their mother( she doesn't seem to have anything for anyone expect possibly herself and little enough of that). They also get WIC vouchers to buy milk and formula and a few other sorts of food. If formula wasn't so expensive I doubt they would be a part of that program, I suspect formula wouldn't be so expensive if the government didn't help pay for it. When I was a kid we got free lunches at school. We were farmers and we got free lunches. We got goverment cheese too, at one point.

    I also am not physically capable of having children, and unless I was with a partner who wanted to raise a child as much as I do, I will not take the responsibility of adoption or fostercare. I do not , however rant at having to pay taxes to support the next generation, I consider it the least I can do. If I had a child I would sign up for any kind of support I would qualify for and hope to spend at least some time home caring for it. I enjoy the occasional times I get to spend watching my "foster brother and sister" but that is a tough gig any way you look at it. I am amazed how well my mom is holding up to the work. There is a lot of love there.

    When this fostercare situation first happened every one was telling me how much my folks would be getting, but they never even mentioned what they would be doing to earn it. They not only are providing a warm loving home for these precious little ones, they are also driving them at least 150 miles each week to various classes and visitations and court meetings, their lives are forced to revolve around the kids. They can expect surprise visits from social workers as well as scheduled ones, they also have cultural resposibilities. as in the kids are native American and need to have exposure to that culture. Luckily they haven't had as much of a problem with that issue as I was afraid of. I was afraid the kids would be taken away entirely and sent to a family within the tribe. I guess they have such a shortage of foster families, and my dad and mom have such close ties to the native community that didn't seem necessary. Still I suspect a good chunk of the money the state is paying my folks is going into savings for the kids.

    Oh , the poor poor beetles.... I also have a very jaded impression of PETA.
  23. Buzzfloyd Spelling Bee

    Aye, there lies the rub! I think you have a great attitude, Tamyra.
  24. Hsing Moderator

    Absolutely true.
  25. Orrdos God

    I tried wii fit the other day, on my friends wii.

    Apparantly, i'm overweight. Boo! My little mii was all bloated and sheepish looking.

    I think i'll get it myself when i get paid, and then work on the bikini body i need before we go on holiday in august.

    Ooooh yeah.
  26. Ba Lord of the Pies

    That's because it uses BMI. BMI was never intended as a diagnostic tool. It is a statistical tool. Individual body type varies greatly. By BMI, most athletes are overweight or obese.
  27. Buzzfloyd Spelling Bee

    I didn't know that. It irks me tremendously the way it is used for diagnosis when it has so many obvious problems when used that way.
  28. Katcal I Aten't French !

    Ba is quite right and BMI is a lousy if not dangerous thing... But I'd better not get started on that, because typing out a rant on the iphone keyboard is more dangerous still.
  29. Orrdos God

    Yeah, it must be my athletes body that's throwing it off.

  30. Garner Great God and Founding Father

    tossing the caber is not an athletic sport.
  31. Buzzfloyd Spelling Bee

    That's between Doors and Ella.
  32. mowgli New Member

    Oh, the VISUALS... why, Grace, whyyyyyyyyyy?
  33. Katcal I Aten't French !

    **Hides eyes and ears and rocks back and forth** No, no, wrong, wrong, bad touch!
  34. randywine Member

    I have a pretty bad BMI but my doctor actually said I have the feet of an Athlete.

    Or maybe he said Athletes foot.

    Boom Boom etc...*

    *With thanks to the old/crap joke society, Men Behaving Badly section.
  35. Pepster New Member

    I would not be surprised if Doors height (and its accompanying extra weight) would mean that he could never have a good BMI without being underweight.


    Looking back at my old posts in this thread, I think I have mellowed a bit while becoming even more of a crackpot who hates everything at the same time it seems..... Good times.

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