When a person is heavily 'under the influence' of any psychoactive drug, be it alcohol or LSD or anything in between, can they be considered, in a legal or medical or psychological sense, to be 'sane'?
So, if they're not legally, medically, or psychologically sane, does this mean they're not responsible for their actions? If i decide i'm going to drink, that's a decision made while i was sane, but if i get drunk, and i decide to keep on drinking, isn't that a decision made while i'm not sane? if then, i try to drive home and run over a 12 year old, wheelchair bound spelling bee champion, little miss texas pagent winner and kill her stone dead, am i not responsible because the sequence of actions that lead up to it were committed by a not sane man?
Are you saying that legally and medically insane people are completely devoid of rational thinking? Are you saying that they are no responsible, or should not be held accountable for thier actions? If you are saying yes, this is the case. Than no, the guy who killed the spelling bee chamion would not be held acountable. I would contend though, that insane people are capable of rational thought and should be held accountable for thier actions. Depending of course on the degree of insanity. I think for someone who was really coocoo for cocopuffs would be different than someone who thought they saw Jesus in a grilled cheese sandwich. Because apart from the grilled cheese fiasco, the latter would be capable of rational thought in every other area.
I agree. That put aside, for decades German courts cursed the law that said that a drunken person is far less, if at all responsible for their deeds, which had the state loosing countless of lawsuits for rape, accidental manslaughter which my otherwise have been considered murder, and cases like the one you constructed. They then came to the same conclusion like Om, plus they added that getting drunk was your decision, too, and you should at least be made responsible for, say, getting adrunk an hour before you were picking up your wife from the airport. Even if driving over that schoolkid could only be called involuntary manslaughter, you could still be sued for the carelessness of drinking in such a specific situation.
Being drunk or using drugs is not considered a defence in Australia, if you can't drive while drunk then your not allowed to commit other crimes either... some guy tried it on in court and the judge said that the choice of using the substance was a sane choice then the actions following on from it are the responsibility of the person who chose the substance in the first place. So the message don't drink and rape :roll:
In Sweden you're still considered to be responsible for your actions, even if you're under the influence of mind-altering drugs/alcohol/whatever. on the other hand there was a case where a guy who had raped a girl in her early teens who got a less harsh p8unishment because the victim had been wearing G-string...
Legally, yes. The legal definition of sanity is the ability to know the difference between right and wrong. People under the influence usually know the difference between right and wrong; they just don't care.
[quote:a18e51bbe7="Garner"]spikey raises what, to me, is probably the critical point... you're sober when you take the stuff.[/quote:a18e51bbe7]Indeed. So there's no excuses.
[quote:e5a0ebcc69="drunkymonkey"][quote:e5a0ebcc69="Garner"]spikey raises what, to me, is probably the critical point... you're sober when you take the stuff.[/quote:e5a0ebcc69]Indeed. So there's no excuses.[/quote:e5a0ebcc69] Absolutely. I cant drink certain drinks because I know how they affect me. White cider ( which is no loss ) and Mead ( /sigh and i love the stuff) I cant drink as it makes me....well Obnoxious and inclined to violence, not that I have ever got into a fight after drinking either but I have come close and only didnt because I have very good friends. Now knowing this I dont drink either...well Ive slipped with the mead once or twice and had a glass or two .. but no more than that. I take responsibility for the fact that I wont be myself if I get drunk with these drinks and so I dont. If people Cannot control themselves whilst under the influence then they shouldt allow themselves to get under the influence or they have to accept reponsibility if they do.
i never really subscribed to the idea that different kinds of alcohol would get you different kinds of drunk... but then when i was drinking, i just tended to aim for whatever would render me unto a state where i was singing and falling out of my chair the fastest.
I can pretty much gurantee that different alchoholic drinks effect people differently, why I have no idea except to to vaguely say ..chemicals..yup thats it chemicals....its how I allways explain it , and vague as it is no one seems to question it as an explanation. Gin - Mothers ruin... makes a lot of people maudlin. Lager Louts - common term some years back for drunken trouble makers actually has an elemnt of truth as Draft Lager is another of those drinks that brings out the worse side of my personality yet if I drink Bitter I just get drunk, act a bit daft then fall over. I was in the Royal Navy years back and worked with a Scottish lad who was a great drunk when on pints... drank, sang songs, laughed, fell over.. sang more songs... told you he loved you.. you know the usual male drunken bonding type of thing. But if he drank Whiskey his judgement started to become very questionable indeed and this one time..... We had just completed an exped out in the Moors and had a night out in this small town in the middle of nowhere and he got drunk on whiskey and we lost him. Got a phone call in the morning from the local police... he had stolen and bump started a motorbike down a hill and crashed it into a parked police car waking the two police men in it! the only police car for 50 miles.... Not seen him for years, I wonder if he still drinks Whiskey?
I wonder how much that has to do with the mood of the drinker when they choose that drink? The behavioural effects of alcohol are, after all, largely psychological.
I know my friend Neil always seems in a fighting mood after whiskey, but I'm not sure if it's the drink or just because it's really strong. I don't really drink anymore, but I used to drink every night and, like Garner, I just drank whatever was easiest to get drunk with, but for me it had to last all night too so spirits were no good. I wasted years of my life ritually drinking from exactly 7pm until about 1am, when I ran out of booze and fell asleep, every night. My mood didn't change at all for being drunk, in fact most people said they couldn't tell the difference between me drunk and me sober, and what I drank didn't make any difference to my mood either. I think if drink turns you into an arsehole, you're probably an arsehole anyway and repressing it or pretending not to be.
I have to agree with Mynona, Marcia, Garner, drunkeymonkey et al. Generally, most people, are in a stable frame of mind before they start drinking, smoking or injecting and, as such, should be considered as having been responsible enough to forsee the results of any behaviour change caused by the after effects. As one of the real "oldies", (I'm nearly 60), on the board whose idea of drug abuse is to take three Paracetemol tablets instead of the recommended two for a severe headache, I would like to quote a comment I once heard from an anonymous advisor in a public house. "Whenever you're drunk, your true personality always comes to the surface." A statement which I think adds a bit of weight to this comment by Maljonic... [color=darkblue:094f0612f8]"I think if drink turns you into an arsehole, you're probably an arsehole anyway..."[/color:094f0612f8]
[quote:f8d292b636="RebelwithoutaPause"]I can pretty much gurantee that different alchoholic drinks effect people differently, why I have no idea except to to vaguely say ..chemicals..yup thats it chemicals....its how I allways explain it , and vague as it is no one seems to question it as an explanation. Gin - Mothers ruin... makes a lot of people maudlin. Lager Louts - common term some years back for drunken trouble makers actually has an elemnt of truth as Draft Lager is another of those drinks that brings out the worse side of my personality yet if I drink Bitter I just get drunk, act a bit daft then fall over.[/quote:f8d292b636] Its is more to do with the percent of the drink that is alcohol (i.e. ethanol) than anything fancy like the type of hops used in a brand of beer effecting the absorption of ethanol into the bloodstream. For example, wine (12-14%) typically has a higher alcohol content than beer (4-5%) yet often a person may drink them at the same rate. Resulting in a different amount of alcohol in the bloodstream after a given time period if one was to drink wine instead of beer. Hence a person after one hour drinking beer may be quite jolly from the mood altering effects of alcohol; the same person after one hour on wine has a significantly greater amount of alcohol in their system thus the mood altering effects of alcohol may not be the same. There are many other factors involved such as the drinkers frame of mind etc. Edited to add: "of alcohol" and a note the percent alcohol contents I gave for wine and beer are from google searches.
i wonder what i would be classed under? i'm bipolar so it means that most of the time (because of the medication) i'm fine but sometimes i get really depressed or really hyper and manic and most of the time i think i'm acting normally untill i look back on it. if i was on a manic episode and what with me being so jumpy i crashed my car, injuring someone, would i be seen by the law as someone that was drink driving?
[quote:0399156ccc="warning_i_have_a_blanket"]i wonder what i would be classed under? i'm bipolar so it means that most of the time (because of the medication) i'm fine but sometimes i get really depressed or really hyper and manic and most of the time i think i'm acting normally untill i look back on it. if i was on a manic episode and what with me being so jumpy i crashed my car, injuring someone, would i be seen by the law as someone that was drink driving?[/quote:0399156ccc]???? I don't get it...
[quote:59096e3156="warning_i_have_a_blanket"]i wonder what i would be classed under? i'm bipolar so it means that most of the time (because of the medication) i'm fine but sometimes i get really depressed or really hyper and manic and most of the time i think i'm acting normally untill i look back on it. if i was on a manic episode and what with me being so jumpy i crashed my car, injuring someone, would i be seen by the law as someone that was drink driving?[/quote:59096e3156] Surely, I would guess, your doctor should have warned you that your medication would cause mood swings and given you the standard warnings such as don't drive at all, don't operate moving machinery, don't climb ladders etc. If such an accident were to happen I think you'd find the police would soon know drugs, however legal, were the cause. It is still the same dilemma, you took a substance knowing it would affect your normal judgement and I think the police would be more inclined to press for a heavier penalty.
The cause of the crash would not be the due to the drugs as they are to stablise mood swings it would be me being on a natural high due to bi-polar illness not any side effects from the prescribed medication to counteract the negative symptoms of the illnesss. During these episodes I am still considered medically sane.
[quote:86f86b9324="Joculator"]I have to agree with Mynona, Marcia, Garner, drunkeymonkey et al. Generally, most people, are in a stable frame of mind before they start drinking, smoking or injecting and, as such, should be considered as having been responsible enough to forsee the results of any behaviour change caused by the after effects. As one of the real "oldies", (I'm nearly 60), on the board whose idea of drug abuse is to take three Paracetemol tablets instead of the recommended two for a severe headache, I would like to quote a comment I once heard from an anonymous advisor in a public house. "Whenever you're drunk, your true personality always comes to the surface." A statement which I think adds a bit of weight to this comment by Maljonic... [color=darkblue:86f86b9324]"I think if drink turns you into an arsehole, you're probably an arsehole anyway..."[/color:86f86b9324][/quote:86f86b9324] Well I guess that makes me an arsehole in your eyes guys... dont worry I dont take offense as we dont actually know each other. However I reiterate, different drinks different effects, and thanks for the lesson on differing strengths of alchohol pepster...but I worked that one out a long time ago mate As mentioned by the mood of the drinker is in fact very important to the result of the drunkeness and if your in a bad mood when you start you will be in a bad mood when your drunk no matter what you drank... but again this is something I've taken into consideration over the years. I dont know if particularly that the basic ingredients of the drinks are the cause but other ingredients - colourings, preservatives and whatever e-numbers are used in certain drinks (White Cider specifically - cheap draft lager made en-masse). I dont expect you to change your opinions just because an anonomous guy on a message board claims to have tested different drinks of different strengths and amounts over many years but you might want to consider that I may be right. If someone is an idiot everytime they are drunk then there is a damn good chance they are an arsehole anyway.. but if they are only idiotic some times then there may be more to it. Plus if a man is a jerk when drunk but an upstanding guy when sober but repressing the side of his personality that other people may dislike then is he really a jerk? He is making the effort not to upset people where a true jerk wouldnt care. I just made that bit up as I went along so not sure if it will stand up to scrutiny. All joking aside Im willing to accept that deep down inside there is probably a dark side to my personality cave men instincts if you will, that may come out when Ive drank too much of whatever alchohol but after many years of observation by me my wife and close friends there is defintely a pattern that indicates that regardless of alchohol strengths, quantity drank and mood that certain drinks are better for me to avoid.
[quote:4fec1da71c="warning_i_have_a_blanket"]The cause of the crash would not be the due to the drugs as they are to stablise mood swings it would be me being on a natural high due to bi-polar illness not any side effects from the prescribed medication to counteract the negative symptoms of the illnesss. During these episodes I am still considered medically sane. [/quote:4fec1da71c] I have a very good friend who is bi-polar. And yes, it's a dificult thing to live with, but like you said, when properly medicated you can live a sane happy life. However, the problem with bi-polar people is that they refuse to medicate properly, or for long periods of time. They tend to go through phases with thier medication. One thing that happens when they are not taking thier medication properly is displacement, or out-of-body experience. My good friend had this happen to her when she was driving once. It was very scary. Suffice to say, she wasn't properly medicated at the time. At these times, I do not believe they can be considered sane. Bi-polar is fatal if not treated correctly. Please take care of yourself.
There are other reasons to act drunk, certainly. Some medical conditions will leave you disoriented and unable to make rational decicions. Diabetes is one such condition. That does not excuse actions taken while not being in their right minds, nor does drinking/taking drugs/whatever. It is a REASON for having bad judgement but not an excuse for what you are doing. One of my medicines for my allergy leaves me in a state much like being drunk, it does not mean that I get in a car after taking it, though. (mostly I'm just lulling about, hopefully I fall asleep.) But what would you do if your drunk friend insist on driving home from the bar/pub? Would you stop him/her? Would you go in the car with your friend?
[quote:5f037aaf78="RebelwithoutaPause"][quote:5f037aaf78="Joculator"]I have to agree with Mynona, Marcia, Garner, drunkeymonkey et al. Generally, most people, are in a stable frame of mind before they start drinking, smoking or injecting and, as such, should be considered as having been responsible enough to forsee the results of any behaviour change caused by the after effects. As one of the real "oldies", (I'm nearly 60), on the board whose idea of drug abuse is to take three Paracetemol tablets instead of the recommended two for a severe headache, I would like to quote a comment I once heard from an anonymous advisor in a public house. "Whenever you're drunk, your true personality always comes to the surface." A statement which I think adds a bit of weight to this comment by Maljonic... [color=darkblue:5f037aaf78]"I think if drink turns you into an arsehole, you're probably an arsehole anyway..."[/color:5f037aaf78][/quote:5f037aaf78] Well I guess that makes me an arsehole in your eyes guys... dont worry I dont take offense as we dont actually know each other. However I reiterate, different drinks different effects, and thanks for the lesson on differing strengths of alchohol pepster...but I worked that one out a long time ago mate As mentioned by the mood of the drinker is in fact very important to the result of the drunkeness and if your in a bad mood when you start you will be in a bad mood when your drunk no matter what you drank... but again this is something I've taken into consideration over the years. I dont know if particularly that the basic ingredients of the drinks are the cause but other ingredients - colourings, preservatives and whatever e-numbers are used in certain drinks (White Cider specifically - cheap draft lager made en-masse). I dont expect you to change your opinions just because an anonomous guy on a message board claims to have tested different drinks of different strengths and amounts over many years but you might want to consider that I may be right. If someone is an idiot everytime they are drunk then there is a damn good chance they are an arsehole anyway.. but if they are only idiotic some times then there may be more to it. Plus if a man is a jerk when drunk but an upstanding guy when sober but repressing the side of his personality that other people may dislike then is he really a jerk? He is making the effort not to upset people where a true jerk wouldnt care. I just made that bit up as I went along so not sure if it will stand up to scrutiny. All joking aside Im willing to accept that deep down inside there is probably a dark side to my personality cave men instincts if you will, that may come out when Ive drank too much of whatever alchohol but after many years of observation by me my wife and close friends there is defintely a pattern that indicates that regardless of alchohol strengths, quantity drank and mood that certain drinks are better for me to avoid.[/quote:5f037aaf78]Actually I can agree with most of what you say, even that some types of drinks can affect certain people differently - I just meant that this doesn't really happen to me. I think it might be an excuse for a lot of people though, and do believe that drink can sometimes bring out your inner twat-wanker-arsholeness, if you have one. Having said that, white cider (the really cheap kind) is fooking evil stuff and shouldn't be drank by anyone. My friend and I used to call it Mind Rotter.
