http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/12/07/rat_brain_flies_jet/ Sci-fi, eh? You think it's fictional, but it just creeps up on you slowly.
[quote:ab86d5e500="Buzzfloyd"]Dear God! The range of things that are possible never ceases to amaze me.[/quote:ab86d5e500] Yes. Now me, I'm a bit afraid of this development. Rat brains don't have moral scruples.
[quote:93140f6d4c="Roman_K"]Yes. Now me, I'm a bit afraid of this development. Rat brains don't have moral scruples.[/quote:93140f6d4c] How do you know? Admittedly their morals may be different from ours, but the morals of an 80 year old Azerbaijani (to pick the first country that popped into my head) man are probably different than those of a 25 year old Englishman. You can't prove that a rat has no morals.
Speciesist! You don't know what it feels like to be a rat brain! You've never had to go through what they go through! You're so unfair! That poor rat brain [i:a054ec8417]never[/i:a054ec8417] gets to exercise the informed ethical choices that other brains do, just because you don't believe they can! Why don't you just admit you [i:a054ec8417]hate[/i:a054ec8417] them?! Edit: crossposted with Ben, who made the point sensibly while I was flippant and facetious. We're doing it to play with your minds.
[quote:43a2dcad4a="Electric_Man"][quote:43a2dcad4a="Roman_K"]Yes. Now me, I'm a bit afraid of this development. Rat brains don't have moral scruples.[/quote:43a2dcad4a] How do you know? Admittedly their morals may be different from ours, but the morals of an 80 year old Azerbaijani (to pick the first country that popped into my head) man are probably different than those of a 25 year old Englishman. You can't prove that a rat has no morals.[/quote:43a2dcad4a] Erm, in this particular case, it was not the brain of a rat insomuch as seperate cells that were taken from a rat brain, and which formed into a new one. They have, in fact, nothing to do with the rat anymore. There is no rat personality in there, or anything of the sort, just a programmed organic computer.
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/10/28/monkey_robotic_arm/ Monkey magic! Edit: Because I can't work the whole URL thingy and still can't do it
[quote:9d40f76f18="Roman_K"]Erm, in this particular case, it was not the brain of a rat insomuch as seperate cells that were taken from a rat brain, and which formed into a new one. They have, in fact, nothing to do with the rat anymore. There is no rat personality in there, or anything of the sort, just a programmed organic computer.[/quote:9d40f76f18] So disembodied brains don't have moral scruples? Er... I dunno really. I guess it's possible that they do, although there would be no glands or emotions to provide the appropriate feedback. Again, there's no actual proof that they don't. More doubtful though.
Haha, monkey arm Anyway surely you could teach the "brain" the morals of right and wrong? Surely it must be possible or it would not have learnt how to fly the jet, so if it can learn whats right and wrong with flying a jet I don't see why it can't learn the right and wrong of say moral ethics and so forth
Because ethics is a field that is incredibly hazy, complex and undefined. Most humans can't agree on what is ethical nor abide by such rules. Flying a jet, on the other hand, is comparatively straightforward since it follows defined rules.
[quote:a96030c1e9="Buzzfloyd"]Because ethics is a field that is incredibly hazy, complex and undefined. Most humans can't agree on what is ethical nor abide by such rules. Flying a jet, on the other hand, is comparatively straightforward since it follows defined rules.[/quote:a96030c1e9] To go even further, it's would be very easy to teach the brain how to drop a bomb. It would be very hard to teach it when doing so is not a good. At least, that's the way I see it.
[quote:510dbb637b="Roman_K"][quote:510dbb637b="Buzzfloyd"]Because ethics is a field that is incredibly hazy, complex and undefined. Most humans can't agree on what is ethical nor abide by such rules. Flying a jet, on the other hand, is comparatively straightforward since it follows defined rules.[/quote:510dbb637b] To go even further, it's would be very easy to teach the brain how to drop a bomb. It would be very hard to teach it when doing so is not a good. At least, that's the way I see it.[/quote:510dbb637b] Very true.... Because ethics and morals is something that is taught to us by our culture and our own perceptions of the world around us. And in that sense follows no logical rules whatsoever....Flying a plane is much easier to teach then than wether or not its ethical to go an fly the plane and then bomb the living daylights out of other people... Also a rat brain flying a F22 is no mean feat...And combining organics with computers - sounds like the Borg...
No, Roman_K is correct, I'm afraid. Ethics don't come into it. Decision doesn't even come into it. The neural net or 'brain' in the petri dish isn't deciding to fly anywhere in particular. It's [b:6491d695d5]much[/b:6491d695d5] less complicated than an actual rat. It is just host to a few negative feedback loops which make sure the plane stays level and whatnot. A conscious brain -could- learn to control the plane, like the monkey and his robotic arm, but this little puddle of brain cells in a dish could be simulated on a PC with relative ease.
This is mad science of the highest order. Ba approves, and demands more funding is given to these worthy projects.
[quote:2f1cd138bc="JetsConnor"]A conscious brain -could- learn to control the plane, like the monkey and his robotic arm, but this little puddle of brain cells in a dish could be simulated on a PC with relative ease.[/quote:2f1cd138bc] A computer program can learn. An organic computer can do so much better, with far fewer resources involved, and probably at a far lower cost once the research bears more fruit. [quote:2f1cd138bc="Ba"]This is mad science of the highest order. Ba approves, and demands more funding is given to these worthy projects.[/quote:2f1cd138bc] Well, the mad dreams of yesterday are the new stepping stones of today.
Ba will be pleased to hear that the team received a $500,000 grant from the US government to continue the research.
[quote:1a062644c5="Roman_K"][quote:1a062644c5="JetsConnor"]A conscious brain -could- learn to control the plane, like the monkey and his robotic arm, but this little puddle of brain cells in a dish could be simulated on a PC with relative ease.[/quote:1a062644c5] A computer program can learn. An organic computer can do so much better, with far fewer resources involved, and probably at a far lower cost once the research bears more fruit.[/quote:1a062644c5] Exactly, the computer program needs to be first programed to stimulate the neural net (not perfect) and then taught* how to fly the jet. The rat brain comes with alot of this already done, done better infact. Cutting a expensive corner out of the developement picture. *taught is perhaps more appropiate than program in this case.
