Religion discussions.

I normally avoid them like the plague.

Generally because I worked out a long time ago that you cannot persuade people online using logic about something as emotive and personal as religion and so I usually end up totally frustrated at what I percieve as others short blinkered opinions ( yes I know thats arrogant...but least I'm honest about it)

Anyway I only bring it up because of something someone said in another thread and it was all I could do not to ask how that person could belie....etc
So rather than jump in with both feet and risk upsetting someone I thought Id check that its not taboo on this board.
I say that because you all seem very close nit and religion debates can get heated even among friends.

If its deemed acceptable I will then post in the other thread why I disagree with the other persons opinion and ask if they can explain it.

cheers.

I have always been open with my atheism on these boards. My basic feelings on religion are:

1. "How can they actually believe that, the fools?"
2. (on Christianity, Islam and Judaism) "I really envy them who are sure they will meet lost friends and relatives when they die."

Belief doesn't stem from logic and hence can't be proven wrong by logic. Belief can also not be faked. How much I'd love to see my granddad again, I still can't pretend I'm Christian all of a sudden. Doesn't work like that.

I am sure most religious people on these boards have similar thoughts on my belief that I have on theirs. One thing I often hear is "Isn't it sad to think there is nothing after death". I agree, it is a bit sad. Doesn't change how I feel about it.

Luckily, I live in a country that have religious freedom, and I intend to exercise this freedom. I do not judge people from their beliefs, but from their actions.

Edit: Just thought I'd mention this, the thing about belief and logic was paraphrased from an msn conversation with Roman.

Edit again: Just to wrap it up, I realise my post was a bit scattered there: I think you're treading a very treachorous road if you're going to try and reason about religious beliefs. I'd recommend you to just stay off it. But that's only my opinion, let's see what the veterans of the boards have to say on this.

I'm an Agnostic myself. I tend to be very respectful of other people's believes, and I try not to bring the subject of religion up, really.

Edit: Not unless someone is actually debating about it, anyway.

Well Malj seems to be one of the people in charge so I'll follow his suggestion.

In another post it is mentioned that many people believe that the President of the US is in the position because God willed it so, yet he was voted in democratically, did god bend his will upon millions of people to ensure they voted for Bush?


Christiananity preaches that man has free will, this is often the explanation used by them to sometimes explain why some people do bad things.
Yet some Christians also claim that certain events occure because of Gods Will, even when the event is bad/evil, people killed etc its explained away as part of the greater picture that god sees, or in this case one particular man is the leader of the most powerful country in the world.

surely both free will and for want of a better term fate can't exist at the same time and just stating a belief in it as being faith is.... well....
illogical?

To answer Mal's point.
Yes Logic is my belief system though what is logical to me now may not be in years to come as we learn more.
oh that just made me think how I would answer my own above question.... mankind as we are now is not evolved enough to understand how god can allow free will and fate to coexist... bah, no its a good attempt at an arguement but I dont buy it....

Sometimes I think I must be a complete freek when I find myself sat here argueing with myself....

[quote:2439367148="RebelwithoutaPause"]In another post it is mentioned that many people believe that the President of the US is in the position because God willed it so, yet he was voted in democratically, did god bend his will upon millions of people to ensure they voted for Bush?[/quote:2439367148]

Just to clarify before I comment further, you know that the post was about the arrogant statements by Bush about people praying for/to him?

Not per say that any of the board members themselves pray to Bush, though they can if they really want to.

----

I am very much a man of logic and science, I do not feel the need in my life for religion. That said, I respect that need in other people.

Edited to add a y and a ? I missed

I always try to respect people, no matter what religion, race, etniticity, hair-colour or shoe-size. But I do judge people in relation to their behaviour, and into this cathegory falls 'I did it because [enter god/goddess of choice] said so'

And then I see, almost daily, examples on religion used to force things on other human beings, that I dislike. Leave people alone to believe what they want, but tell them when you think they are doing something that disagrees with what should be seen as morally right by all human beings. Murder for example, I don't care if you think your wife comitted adultry, that does not give you the right to stone her to death. Being a pries does not give you the right to force yourself onto women.

Most religions talk about understanding and not using violence, in this world this is something that should be practiced more by both believers and non-belivers.

That is my blief

Edited becauase of spelling on behalf of ben, who complained.

I have no problem with other peoples beliefs, although I do get some comment, about my Anglo-Celtic paganism.
I find it unbelievable how some people react when underneath is still the same person who would buy you a drink, lend you a fiver, help you move house/decorate/babysit their children etc.

I did like this line...
[quote:b86f26af97="Mynona"]Most religions talk about understanding and not using violence, in this world this is something that should be practiced more by both believers and non-belivers.[/quote:b86f26af97]
You just have to look at history to see how bloody and violent many conflicts between religious sects have been. It just show's how much they listen to their own teachings.

[quote:9a75fa91e7="Pepster"]

Not per say that any of the board members themselves pray to Bush, though they can if they really want to.

[/quote:9a75fa91e7]

Sometimes I pray that he'll choke on another pretzle and the SS won't be there to call 911. Does that count?

And why do you think I said it?

[quote:14c4687550="Maljonic"][quote:14c4687550="Joculator"]...
You just have to look at history to see how bloody and violent many conflicts between religious sects have been. It just show's how much they listen to their own teachings.[/quote:14c4687550]

I think in history, and perhaps now also, the people who fight don't actually follow their religion exactly, it's more that they use it as a badge of identity that puts them in one gang or another, "them" and "us" if you will, which they use as an excuse to attack the other group - or their country/gang leader uses as a means to provoke them into attacking another group.[/quote:14c4687550]

I agree on principle with what your saying but I believe that people who do follow the religion properly often fight alongside those who use it as a vehicle for there own hatreds.
The reason I believe this is that Religion is about control, people use it to control other people and to get them to fight for them.
Look at the crusades for instance, the leaders of the Christian church demanded the help of all God fearing Christians to go over and save the Holy land. Most of the people went over because they believed what the religous leaders told them. I believe this is true with Muslims today as well.
**edit just realised you said more or less the same thing in your last sentence...doh! sorry.**

Pepster - Aye I realised that the other post was about Bush's arrogance but it was just something I picked up on in Tamyra's post, and to be honest I'm not sure if she was serious when she said she thought god must have put Bush in power, but it did make me think about the people who do believe that.

I'm agnostic, brought up Roman Catholic.

One thing I don't think's been brought up yet is the difference between believing in the existence of a God and believing in a religious institution.

Personally I think it's arrogance to claim any truth regarding the former, whether this is from Christians, Muslims or Atheists, because we just can't know. Although people are, of course, free to believe whatever they like (or should be).

And I'd have to say I'm against the latter. These are institutions that have been established based on some claim to truth that I don't think can be made, more often than not setting out a list of rules and moral judgements based on nothing more than a belief. Sure, they might claim to be teaching 'the Word of God' or whatever, but I'll always remain extremely cynical about how exactly we're supposed to have received it. A word I often use when discussing this kind of thing with Plaid, and when hearing about stories of individuals being visited by God or angels and told to go out and do stuff, spread the word and find the gold plates that nobody else gets to see, is the word 'convenient'.

And besides, I don't see why there's any need for an intermediary, especially when in any institution grounded in religion, simply because of human nature, there will always be some level of corruption or distortion. I disagree with the idea of any kind of religious hierarchy whereby someone claims authority through God for this very reason. Again, this might be cynical, but I just don't trust it. Sorry, Pope.

I think we're immediately on shaky ground if we don't establish exactly what is meant by 'religion', though. I've been careful to use 'religious institution', because religion meaning simply 'a set of beliefs' is something different.

Well, you do what any sensible god should do. Do you just PM the odd person and tell them to go and spread the word? No! You appear before us all and tell us what's what.

We do, however, ignore you.

Edit: Well, I do.

Edit 2: *ignores*

I really dont know if I believe in God or not.

I believe in nature and science as a means of understanding nature. I think I may believe that God is an aspect of nature. But Im not a tree hugger or druid or pagan.
I also realise that nature can be extremly deadly and harsh ( volcanos/tornado's etc) but allways even and fair handed.

I believe that the world would be a better place if we where all nice to each other.

I certainly dont believe that if a god exists he involves himslef in day to day affairs nor do I believe he could be so petty as to demand we be in certain places at certain times and grovel to him just to feed his ego.

I do believe that Religous institutions bring a lot of comfort to people.
I also believe that Religous institutions over the years have caused more wars and deaths than all other reasons combined.

It seems to me two types of people are attracted to religous institutions. Those who want the world to be a nicer place and follow a set of rules to make it so, and those who want to control others/enforce there views on others.
The second category is by far the minority but it tarnishes the image of religous institutions and those people who have faith for all the right reasons.
And Ive got so engrossed in this debate I didnt notice that everyone else has gone home and work is over....bye
/em runs for the door

That's why I don't really believe in all these stories that many religions seem to sprout from of God appearing before individuals and telling them to go and do things. If you believe in this God who has given us all free will, this at the very least seems manipulative.

Agreed.

While this is true, committing to any set of beliefs just because it seems to work for us is something to be wary of. I think it was...Cephalus, whose character appeared in Plato's Republic, who believed what he believed because for most of his life it had allowed him to live contentedly even if it wasn't necessarily the truth. Then, one day, he lost everything. But I might be remembering that wrong.

Religion by itself doesn't start wars. Fanatical belief does. You can just as easily be a fanatical follower of some rabidly atheistic philosophy - Communism, anyone? Marxism? Stalin preached atheism, as did Mao Zedung, as did Pol Pot.

...It's when you willingly shut off both your brain and your heart in order to become someone else's weapon, then you have a problem. Other than that - freedom of religion for all, as far as I'm concerned!

Religious institutions are the people.

But yeah, not all of them cause wars.

I am an agnostic, raised atheist.

As to the "wound't it be so much nicer if there realy was life after death" debate: I find it more comforting to believe that there won't be an Afterlife; I prefur to think that life is more than just some Sadistic test.

Well, it looks like I missed out on all the fun,while I was doing battle with the potatoes.

To Rebel without a pause, if you look at the post I made in the "sustain me, baby" thread, I never once used the word believe. I did use the word Bible and you may have made some assumptions. From the latest post of yours, I would have to say I am pretty close to you in my own take on religion. I do believe in God, but I don't have much use for any religious institutions, mostly because I think people have basically ruined them.

I don't think we can really know God in this life and I think there are going to be some really surprised people in the hereafter,which I do believe in. I am married to a man who was clinically dead long enough to have a death certificate filled out, he's told me a few things about what it was like and he says he's not afraid of going back there. I think there is a good chance that the part of us that makes us us is other then just chemistry and energy. I think its going to be way more fun in the undiscovered country.

As science progresses I see it getting closer to God. We are understanding so much more about life and the universe and how it happened that one day soon we may actually be able to really thank God for what He gave us and know what it really is.

As for the idea that we can appease God with prayers or ceremonies, I don't buy that. We can accept the gifts of life and love, freely and fully, and show our respect and gratitude,but we cannot compel God anymore then we can compel the clouds or the stars in the sky.

I don't know if religion has caused any wars, I think that religion is used like a tool to influence people. When people stop thinking for themselves and subjegate themselves to religious leaders all sorts of terrible things have happened. I have been around for a long list of twisted religiuos events,from Jim Jones' purple kool-aid to suicide bombings in the name of Allah, and I have read about even more.

I don't understand being hated for what I believe or don't believe, because as a child I knew and loved and felt loved by people from several diffferent churches. My sister-in- law once told me she thought her oldest son might be a Catholic priest someday, her younger son has been attending a Baptist based church but his son was baptised at the Episcopal church on the reservation that uses the Ojibway language. I was baptised in the Methodist Church, raised in a Baptist church that ended up with an Apostolic Lutheran minister and I married a non- practicing Catholic. I have relatives that have given years of their lives to the mission field, and relatives that have given years of their lives to the military/ industrial complex.

I pray to God like I speak to a friend, I have seen people get what was coming to them and I have seen people have more trouble then anyone should have to bear, I try to ask why not me? more then why me? I have attended Bible studies and I have sat down and read the bible like a good book, I think there is something more to the book then just human wisdom. If it turns out to be only human thoughts at least we know that we thought about the same things then as we do now and that is a comfort to me.

As for George W. Bush, the [i:2ad1275ebf]only[/i:2ad1275ebf] way I can imagine this country or even one person voting to have him as President, is that there is some non-apparent reason that Someone understands , because I sure don't. I understood that he would [i:2ad1275ebf]be[/i:2ad1275ebf] elected, but I still don't understand how it is that someone so arrogantly inarticulate, so unaware of ordinary American concerns or practices, could be chosen by anyone to lead this country. He scared the crap out of me back in 2000 and he just hasn't stopped.

It is one am and I have to get some sleep before the alarm goes off at 5:45am.

For me, religion is about moral choices. I am at peace with my conscience if I know that I would make the same choice whether there was irrefutable proof that God exists or not.

I do have a lot of beef with organised religion though. It's not just the fact that I am considered a tainted vessel just because I am female, it's because of the profound lack of adaptability that leaves people hanging in more ways than one. I have long since come to the conclusion that good people are good no matter what their faith and bad people are bad no matter what God they worship and how and treat them accordingly.

If only the latter weren't so noisy and troublesome...