Here is where you can find about the newly presented "Gospel of Judas". The greek edition of the National Geographic magazine will be circulated tomorrow, though I doubt it will have many more information on the subject. What it will certainly lack though is the discussion on the site's forum, which I have found now open only to topics concerning Chernobyl and Venezuela. Maybe because of all the frothing at the mouth. See, very few in the 35 pages of comments could see it as an important archaeological finding. The atheists hailed it as proof that christianity is a scam. The Hebrews as proof that the revealed truth is only the Torah. The Muslims that the only original and unchanged book is the Qu'aran. And there were of course the Christians who refuted it as a work of the devil, sent to strike at the one true faith. Any thoughts?
I don't really know the full story, but I guess if Jesus was fated to die someone had to be fated to set his death in motion, or a group of people. It's kind of odd though thinking of it that way.
This can't be a new theory, is it? I grew up with very little knowledge of Christianity, but one of the things I remember hearing when I was small is that "the disciple infamous for betraying Jesus may well have been Christ’s most faithful servant and—because the Savior asked him to—accepted perpetual disgrace to bring about Jesus' death". Has the theory been around a long time, only finding possible proof now, or did I know the only cracked Christian around?
[quote:134542929f="sampanna"]Has the theory been around a long time, only finding possible proof now, or did I know the only cracked Christian around? [/quote:134542929f] The theory has been around for a while. The rock opera Jesus Christ Superstar, written by Tim Rice and Andrew Lloyd Webber somwhere around 1970, discusses Jesus' last days from Judas' perspective. I am sure the idea has been around longer than that. It all sounds logical to me. For the sake of argument, lets say the basic christian ideas (god is omnipotent, Jesus was god's son and so on) are true. Let it be known that this is not my belief. Now, if the christian god is omnipotent and got his ineffable plan to spread his words through Jesus, he would have needed to off Jesus to be able to rez him three days later, and also give Jesus a PR boost through martyrdom. I guess you could argue that all men have a free will, and Judas' actions were those of a free man, but I don't think god would let his plans about spreading his word throughout the world be ruined by one man's free will. So, either god arranges for Judas to betray Jesus, or sees that he's capable of doing it and allows it happen. In any case, Judas is a tool helping god and Jesus to reach their goals. I can imagine Judas being devastated about aiding the Romans prosecuting Jesus. He probably did not know that this was all part of the ineffable plan, so he committed suicide, reasoning that this is a better way to die than to face the other apostels. Now, if you ask me, I'd say Judas became a saint. He was very much a part of making Jesus immortal. I think I remember something about catholics regarding suicide as a capital sin. This is probably not an obstacle for an omnipotent god.
This will probably have a bit more impact than the other Gnostic gospels, like the Gospel of Thomas. But still nothing Christianity shattering. I was never one to 'hate' Judas, and was always dismayed at people who did. But then again, I'm also a big fan of Webber's JC Superstar.
Superstar! Yes, now I remember .. the discussion with my Christian friend started when I heard the musical for the first time. Thanks for jogging the memory Kaptaan!
[quote:f3dacb5442="Katcal"]... the musical rocks [/quote:f3dacb5442] [quote:f3dacb5442="sampanna"]... when I heard the musical ...[/quote:f3dacb5442] It's [i:f3dacb5442]not[/i:f3dacb5442] a musical, it's a rock opera! How would I look, a rocker like me, listening to pansy musicals? That wouldn't do. I love JCS, but I will only admit it as long as it isn't a musical. Also, any rumours about me crying when watching the Lion King's intro scene are falsifications.
DIfferent versions of Jesus's life aren't new either, isn't the Dead Sea Scrolls just a different version, ie gospel of Jesus's life. Why would a different version of Judas's gospel change the world? Where talking history and as we all know historians change their minds and history is merely what gets written down. After that its all guess work and belief. My rather eclectic religious upbringing failed to tell me why Judas was hated, and why all jews were considered Judases. I personally think this is a good thing, I grew up without learning that hate and religious intolerence. SO when someone tells me theres a different version to the story I can sit back and think "thats nice" without my faith being shattered.
... At the risk of sounding coy, I don't think people take Gospels as Gospel anymore, i.e. instead of believing the Bible literally (thank God for that, in many occasions!), they believe their favorite clergyman's interpretation of it, and dismiss everything else as either misguided or intentionally evil. Back in the day, Bishop Iraneus and his team have made the decision of what to believe. Either no one argued, or the arguers were dealt with appropriately. I think the idea of Judas being a true and tragic friend - who sacrificed his soul in order to help Jesus onto the cross and into divinity - makes for a better story . Granted, then you're left without the horrible figure of the Ultimate Betrayer to hold up before people, in order to teach them...er.. not to betray. Except that, even with the Judas in his old role, people have continued to stab their friends in the back for centuries. The example of Big Bad Judas didn't work. Pity... How many here have seen "The Last Temptation of Christ"? (Very very very very very VERY good movie, echoing the ideas of the Gnostic Gospels as well as the Gospel of Judas before they became famous)
I thought of that one, too, Mowgli. Very good film, even though Jesus looks, in bit parts, a little like a Viking prince or something...
Did anyone see the TV show on National Geographic Channel at the start of the week about the discovery of the Judas Gospels?- It doesn't give any more information really than what's on the National Geographic site that Sachrissa linked too. There's loads more Gospels that have come to light over the years For example those found as part of the Dead Sea Scrolls - The Gospel of Philip, Mary Magdalene etc. The four Gospels in the New Testament, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John are only a small portion of the actual gospels that were circulated verbally and written down by Gnostics (the pre-runner's of Christians) 100 years + AD (BTW there is little or no evidence that Matthew Mark Luke or John even penned anything!)
[quote:5392630c19="spiky"] My rather eclectic religious upbringing failed to tell me why Judas was hated, and why all jews were considered Judases. I personally think this is a good thing, I grew up without learning that hate and religious intolerence. SO when someone tells me theres a different version to the story I can sit back and think "thats nice" without my faith being shattered.[/quote:5392630c19] I don't know about other denominations, but Catholicism doesn't teach "all jews are Judases"- that was the perception in the Middle Ages and other times, but not now. I do think they should teach us "people used to say this, but its WRONG"-- going to public school and hearing people say that about the church confused the heck out of me, and its an important thing to remember. Reminds me of the Passion reading though- the Sunday before Easter, the Gospel is the story of Him being handed over and betrayed, up to the crucifixion. Its divided into parts, for a narrator, Jesus (predictably played by the priest), and the crowd, which is read by the congregation. And the parts the congregation reads are the lines condemning Him- you end up standing in church saying/shouting (depending on your parish's level of enthusiasm) "Crucify him!" It feels really weird, but I think its there as a reminder "This is our fault- a good man died for US, because WE are sinners, therefore we are ALL responsible".
Inna, the movie was based on the book by the same name, written by Nikos Kazantzakis. This is the book that got him excommunicated, mind, and the positive prortayal of Judas was a minor reason. I won't say the rest, I don't want to spoil it for you. The Franko Jeffirelli mini-series had something of the sort as well.
If I recal correctly, the night before his arrest, Jesus actually tells Judas to "Do what must be done." I do not remember which gospel this was in.
I think it's interesting, the way concepts of morality have evolved. In the Old Testament, there's the story of Abraham and Isaac, in which God orders Abraham to sacrifice his son Isaac. Abraham does this and the general consensus is that he's done a good thing by being loyal to God's demands. Isaac never gets killed because God miraculously replaces him with a ram, but the fact is that Abraham would have murdered his son because he thought God would have wanted him to - and Abraham is considered a hero because of it. Fast forward to the New Testament - Judas is involved in getting Jesus executed; even though he's fulfilling God's plan, it's hard to stop thinking of him as a "bad guy" because we "know" that it's wrong to cause someone to be executed without just cause (i.e. not having committed a crime that the community has determined should be punishable by death.) It seems as if by the time of the New Testament, western culture has evoved an abstract sense of justice that goes above and beyond religion and what God wants. It brings to mind Plato's Euthyphro
meh, the old testament and new testament versions of YHWH can barely be reconciled. the personalities of God the Father and God the Son are vastly different to such an extent that the two might as well be utterly separate entities. course, i'd quite like to reevaluate that assumption based on the various other bits of christian/gnostic writings that were left on the roadside over the years. it's unfortunate that those who DO take the bible as the literal truth and espouse 'a whole bible, not a bible full of holes' so rarely ever seem to ask themselves 'what got cut out at the council of Nicine?'
[quote:49ed8d064d="Saccharissa"]Inna, the movie was based on the book by the same name, written by Nikos Kazantzakis. This is the book that got him excommunicated, mind, and the positive prortayal of Judas was a minor reason. [/quote:49ed8d064d] Thanks, Avgi! I keep meaning to find the book... Excommunicated, eh? :?
