Apparently trolls are just harder to play in the game. As Ba understands it, it's actually balanced fairly well, if the players are very good at the game.
I think Rincewind means in terms of intelligence. Also, in game terms the Trolls are slightly easier to play (at least in the beginning, not sure about later on), but because you switch sides that doesn't matter. However, I think the point Pterry was trying to make was that these two species have so much experience in fighting and hating each other that in game terms they are equal to each other. Skill at the board game is derived not so much from tactical savvy as from the ability to think like a dwarf or a troll. On the Discworld, anyway. That's why the best Thud players were the ones who immersed themselves in the other culture.
Well, in terms of intelligence, trolls aren't stupid, they're just slow. Their proccessing speed is low, as it were. Give a troll a year to think about every move in, say, a game of chess, and he's quite likely to win.
In practical terms that still means they are stupid. Intelligence is only a relative term, it is not an absolute. I'd say even processing speed factors into it. Also, in terms of what Pterry is trying to prove, that it is a cultural thing rather than a battle of wits, it doesn't really matter as long as you accept that there is a difference between the two species.
True. In fact, you can easily notice the way Pratchett tries to portray people with regard to the game. A very good example of this is in Going Postal, with the way various people comment on the game. Mr. Horsefly, specifically.
Some stuff from the e-mail chats: CAUTION! There are spoilers for Going Postal, Monstrous Regiment, Night Watch and Thief of Time ____________________________
Some more stuff, the previous post seems long enough already... __________________________________________
And it just keeps on going... There's a small spoiler for The Fifth Elephant ____________________________________________
I agree that this book just did not have the unexpected humor that his books have. I enjoyed it but I have to say there was a bit of a disapointmnet. I don't want to get any one upset but I have to say this book came close to being main stream. I don't think Terry was trying for a movie. DiscWorld is a special place and all the folks who live there are special. I love Vimes with his son. I think the lose and unexpected writing of these books is what makes them so wonderful. I just had a terrible thought. Could DiscWorld be growing up? Good Lord, I hope not.
It has been growing up, actually. Night Watch is the best example of it, as it blends a darker setting and style of writing with a good storyline. It worked, it still had the Discworld-ness that was, I believe, required of it, and it was a bloody good book. The problem with the darker style of writing is that it appears to be a hit-and-miss thing for Terry. Night Watch was a hit. Monstrous Regiment, and Thud! in part, were a miss. But the hit-and-miss thing could be said of all of his books, really. Some books are good, some are not.
I liked Thud. I agree with Spiky that the mystery was much more about Koom valley than about the murders, and I didn't mind that at all. I liked the Brick / Detritus relationship. And I liked Mr. Shine and the expansion of Troll culture in general. I did find it to be a riveting read, just because I wanted to see what happened with Koom valley. But that being said, there were parts of the book that I wanted to skim through to get to the next large plot developement. Whereas usually his works rivet me to each page. The only part of the book that I REALLY didn't like was how PTerry had the women Blue Falcon Nobby by getting Tawny to dump him. I could imagine if it were somewhat reversed male1: "Uh, dude, you're dating a whale." male2: "You mean that I could get a hot chick?" male1: "Well duh." male3 comes in: "Dude, you're dating a whale." male2: "Uh, isn't so and so your friend?" male3: "She's still a whale." Not a very cool scene. And then Nobby "Oh, I'm going to dump Tawny and go back to my fishmonger" is a little too convenient. Overall a good book though.
True... When Nobby dumped Tawny before she dumped him, it felt like PTerry was backing out of what would have been an uncomfortable situation... Interesting question wether he would have written similar scenes if the gender roles would have been reversed...
I was rather irked at the whole get-Tawny-to-break-up-with-Nobby plot... right up until the end of the girls' night out, when Pterry writes that Tawny was "in quite a thoughtful mood". At that point, I lost all sympathy for Tawny, because if Nobby was indeed a decent catch despite his appearance, then Tawny could have said "No thanks, I got me a man I'm happy with, take the other ones away!" (Nobby I didn't lose sympathy for until he went ahead and dumped Tawny himself)
I didn't have any problems regarding Nobby's and Tawny's relationship and the end was pretty much expected-and proper. I mean, Tawny got into a relationship with Nobby because she had serious self-esteem issues and Nobby got into a relationship with Tawny out of inertia. It was adorable, how guileless their affair was. Tawny cared for Nobby (out of gratitude, but that's another story) and Nobby did not treat her as a sexual object. In the end, Nobby proved that what he wanted was truly a soul mate, like he told Angua in The Fifth Elephant; since Tawny was not what Nobby wanted for a happy daily routine (that is, a good cook) then he did not waste her time any longer and decided to break up with her. On another note, I think Pterry is preening Vimes for godhood. Discuss.
Are you getting verklempt? That would be interesting, the man who hates kings becoming a god. For some reason I could see him being offered it, but turning it down.
One particular bit of the 'Thud!' book is the hint (Well, it's pretty obvious) of Anhk-Morpork getting an Underground Train system. (One of the Devices can turn for invinity, if needed, and the sign on the entry to the Mine in Anhk-Morkpork was a circle with a line thought it: Which is the sign for the London Underground.) It's interesting to see what Discworld is slowly turning into. It isn't as much a fantasy world of dungeons and dragons, it's a parody of our world.
About the godhood thing. Ever since The Fifth Elephant, people have been having faith on Vimes, and this has become much more apparent in Thud!. Since gods are fed by belief, and it is possible for a mortal who is believed in enough to reach a god-like state, where s/he can listen to prayers, I say our fabourite cynical bastard will keep prodding buttock even when he shuffles off this mortal coil.
That's always been true, to a degree - although the line may have wandered from "Fantasy Parody with satirical elements regarding our actual world" (a lot of the comedy developed from both hitting each other on the head) to the "parody of today with the means of fantasy writing". The whole thing is becoming more steampunk, though...
I liked the fact that Sally didn't have a noticeable obsession. The black ribboner with obsessive behaviour (Otto with photography, Maladicta with coffee) was getting to be an annoying bad joke. I also want to see more of Mr. Shine.
Interesting point here - vampirism (or vampyrism) on Discworld seems to fall into three different categories - there is the early one where blood is a necessary part of their diet, but can be satisfied by working in kosher butchers or slaughterhouses, there is the Carpe Jugulum version where it is about control, and there is the Black Ribboner version which treats it as an addiction. Assuming that the last one is the current format, I fit into the "Sally" mould - when I gave up smoking about 16 years ago I did it "cold turkey", and when I went off alcohol for five years, I did the same (dual purpose - letting my body recover somewhat and proving to my friends that I was not an alcoholic ) - but that does not mean that everyone can, so Otto and Maladicta have their replacement activity, which is reasonable. Before people think I'm getting too smug about my will-power - the odd few occasions I've smoked the wacky baccy at parties it has done nothing for me, and I certainly do not intend to rely on being able to give up and therefore risk anything eaten as a pill, shoved up my nose, or injected into my blood system!
Having gotten this book for Christmas (along with Interesting Times, Small Gods and Lords and Ladies) I must say that it was by far my favourite. The best characters were there (though only briefly), such as The Librarian, Ridcully (I thought his part was hilarious) and The Patrician. While it wasn't as funny as the others I have read, some of it was great, if a little predictable (the dwarf king asking whether the cube was on in particular). I loved the part wher Vimes is playing Thud with Helmclever, it was so tense, and very well made. Death's part in it was also very good, as are all Death's appearances. You really got to feel that Death wanted Vimes to succeed. I like the relationship between Vimes and Vetenari (SP?), sort of like Inspector Frost and his boss, the policeman being cheeky to his superior. I personally thought this was Pratchett at his best, although I did think that the secret of the painting wasn't all that exciting. I was expecting that it was going to play a more prominent role. Or something. Still, a very good book. Loved it.
Although this isnt my Fave Watch book i did think it was a great read. i thought the bit when Vimes is in the Caves screaming the words to "Wheres my Cow" was classic. I also really loved Brick. I want to see a lot more of his relationship with Detritus and more of Mr Shine (Him Diamond lol) A lot has been said about the "Girls night out" scene. For the record i used to run a pub in the UK and i have seen plenty of respectable professional girls act this way on nights out- even though it is completly out of character.
I don't know what most peoples' problem with it has been; I dislike it more for the fact that it adds nothing at all to the book- it needed to either be longer or cut out entirely. Did anyone else find himself reminded of the Tiffany books here- the Summoning Dark reminded me of the Hiver (without the naivete)
That was a big part of my problem with it. What the hell was the point? Edit: Also, I thought the women's conversation was stilted and not like young women's conversation actually is (at least in my part of England). It read like a dialogue between young women as written by an older middle-aged man who hasn't spent much time in their company. Funny, that.
It is a very interesting book which suggests the idea that racial fights can only be devastating for any civilised society and it is always better to try and work things out.
