On another board I am on, a woman was complaining that when she and her husband went to purchase some furniture, when the salesman was filling out the forms, he asked her what her 'Christian name' was. She is Jewish; her husband is Christian. Her husband had to explain to her that by 'Christian name' he meant given name. She was extremely offended, and wanted to know what would have happened if she had asked the salesman, 'What's your Jewish name?' Or if she had been wearing traditional Muslim dress. The opinions on the thread were divided between 1) The person is placing Christianity above all other religions, and since 'Christian name' really means 'the name with which you have been christened', the person is assuming that a complete stranger is Christian, and that he doesn't have to acknowledge the existence of Islam, Hinduism, Sikhism, Judaism, Buddhism, etc. 2) The term is just a traditional one. The person was just using a traditional phrase without meaning to refer to any religion, and that there is too much political correctness and oversensitivity. Almost all of the people who thought it was no big deal were Christians themselves. One thing that I wanted to know was why someone who was trying to run a business would use a term that might possibly offend a potential customer? Thoughts?
I think it was very thoughtless and maybe obsolete. Do you really use the word christian name in everyday use? Seems very un-practical. As usual we are better in Sweden. We say first name, middle name and last name. And that is not a new custom now when we too have muslims and jews here. The only new thing is that a last name must be a family name. Before 1901 many had patrynomicum ie Svensson really was Sven's son.
I, personally, have never heard the term used. In the US, I have heard 'first name'. In England, I have heard 'forename'. The woman lives somewhere in the UK, but I don't know where.
Actually we have another term in swedish; 'tilltalsnamn' which roughly translated becomes 'the name which you are called by' ie: the name you use. Some people don't use their first name, as such, and that's a better term for it, really.
You did see 'Christian name' on many forms in England, although in recent years it has been replaced by forename.. It's a traditional thing, but is meant to be polite, not offensive. I can see how it could be offensive, but it isn't much used anyway. ~BoB~
Yeah, I agree with Bob; it's a bit outdated to say Christian name now, I'm guessing the guy was at least in his 40s or more. I don't remember actually seeing a form with Christian name as a question, but I don't think many people would think about it much if someone asked them, maybe a little? You only ever see 'forename' or 'first name' on forms now; often the latter because many people are too stupid to know what the former means.
I know when i was younger and in school in Britain teachers would always ask for you christian name. Technically it wasn't a christain school and most people (okay all but about 3, and they came when I left) were christian (or forced onto the religion). The thing about that town is everyone assumes you are christain or an athiest who was a christian, and its mostly a safe assumsion to make. At least it was when I lived there. What I'm trying to say is it is still a common phrase used in many of these smaller communities where people assume everyone is in much the same possition as them. It's not a great term to use and people don't actually think..oh your a muslim I can't ask for a christian name because to them it's just a term that means your firstname. If this is the case then it's really just ignorance and my guess is after a period of time it will become obsolete.
I have never in my life had anyone ask me what my "christian" name is. As far as I am concerned, it is an obsolete term.
I'm talking about a small town in Scotland which is mainly Christian...it is heard less than it used to but is most definitely not obsolete. It just depends on the area and type of poeple. This story probably happened in a mainly christian area otherwise the shopkeeper would have been more aware of the difference.
In Greece the term for first name can be translated as "Short" or "Small", but in official forms it's just "Name". I don't think the man meant to offend the woman, if she was in muslim attire, I don't think he would have used the term "christian".
I don't think the man meant to offend either. The problem is that he either made the assumption that she is Christian, even though she was a complete stranger, or else he didn't consider that if she wasn't Christian the term might be upsetting to her. Speaking as a Jew, if I had been in that situation, I would have felt very uncomfortable. edit: If you are Jewish, your 'Jewish name' is often different from the name you use every day in public or your legal name. It is the name you are known by in synagogue, which most people never hear, unless you spend most of your time in synagogue. So I can see how someone could be confused by the term 'Christian name' if they had never heard it before, thinking that it means the name you use in church.
Honestly said, when I red the question "What is your Christian name" I naively thought - "Oh - I don't know. What would it be? Is there some Latin version of Yvonne?" Obviously, its uncommon over her to ask like that for a person's first name.
Even using "forename" or "first name" does not cover all possibilities, because of those cultures where the sequence of names puts the family name first - a better choice is "family name" and "given name" which makes no reference to word order.
Asking for first name or even christian name is problematic for a lot of cultures where they don't have such a thing... I have students whose enrolments have things like Veronica Veronica (not an actual name but I can't remember real ones I've had) because they only have the one name and the system requires 2 names to be entered, so it gets entered twice... Then you get a lot of Malay names which sometimes include no family name, they'll have 4 names but none of them are last name or family name... they're just all given names and the person may use any of them as their commonly referred to name...such as a friend who was Mohammed Ahmed Namelhanmud Susman..."Just call me Mel".
... If someone asks me for my Christian name, I should just say "Mohammed"... (Unfortunately, that will just peg me as either very crazy or very rude, and saying "Fatima" instead just won't be as funny)
In the area I'm in, a rural area, I always use "given name" or "first name." I think taking strong offense at "Christian name" is kinda silly. I would say that very rarely is it meant to hurt or cause offense. There are still some areas around that use that term. The areas are not more Christian, fanatical, or anything else. It's just that "Christian name" is what the given name was referred to as. I'm not advocating a usage of that particular wording, but taking offense at it is kinda silly. People come from larger cities to some of our little, rural areas and act like we have leprosy becuase of some of our mannerisms and ideas. We don't mean to offend, as some of the ones that wished to found out, but sometimes people are just a little too nervy. When I go to a larger city I don't expect people to be just like me and talk to me the same way they do at home. When I go to a little hole in the wall place, I don't make judgements about the people that spit their tobacco on the floor of the shop. That's the way they do things there, it's not hurting me, if I don't like it I can leave. I'm usually of the temperment that leave the little battles, they will oftentimes clear up, and face down the major ones. If you spread yourself thin and wear yourself out on the basically unimportant things, what are you going to have left in your arsenal?
It won't be as funny because Fatima is actually a Christian name, very common in Portugal. So, a Portuguese would ask you about the old country
I have never heard anyone in the UK use any other term but 'Christian name' to refer to someone's first name. It would not have occured to me that it would offend anyone, since to me, 'Christian name' has no religious connotation, but is simply a phrase meaning 'the name that comes before your surname'. The shopkeeper was not being insensitive, he was just using an ordinary British phrase. If the woman is going to upset by it, she should realise that it is not intended to imply anything about her religious faith, but is simply part of the language of a people who are traditionally Christian. If she's in the UK, she should expect to see and hear things influenced by this country's history. Deal with it. I go for option 2 (noting that I do fit in with Marcia's statement that the people who thought it wasn't a big issue are all Christians). Honestly, nobody I know in this part of the country uses any other phrase for a first name, they would not be even remotely thinking about religion when they said it, and the phrase is old enough that the proper meaning is irrelevant. When I saw the topic title, I thought Marcia was just asking everyone what their name was, and I was surprised she would ask that question on the internet, since so many people would be wary about identity fraud etc.
Yeah, I thought the same. Christian Name is just common usage for me, although I'm familiar with 'forename' and 'first name', if someone asked for my christian name I wouldn't bat an eyelid, despite not being particularly religious. It's just a part of the culture here.
I am not, by any stretch of the imagination, a Christian. I have been asked my Christian name enough times that I hadn't even considered the implications of it, and it's never occurred to me to take it in a religious context, let alone be offended by it! Lots of words originally had meanings very different from their modern usage - I think the term "Christian name" is just another example of this.
I agree that it's not at all offensive, but then I'm not a none Christian so why would it bother me? It's obvious that it's been considered offensive to some, by the government at least, simply by the fact that official forms, college enrolments and such, no longer say Christian Name on them. I think it depends where you live too, if it's somewhere more cosmopolitan like a big city with lots of different cultures you are less likely to hear it or see it anywhere; but if you live in more of a cultural backwater you'll find that people still use these terms because they've never heard any different, and so wouldn't even think about it. For instance, the way things are done in London to do with social work and related occupations are about 5 to 10 years ahead of the way things are done up here in York, though York is streets ahead of all the other places around it who are living in a virtual Victorian era. I also thought that the topic of discussion here was simple people's first names when I first saw it because of my own social upbringing, but I can clearly see why it isn't been used anymore; it's especially more apparent when you work with people on a social level for a living, a lot of people can be very particular about how you perceive them - disabled/handicapped, black/coloured - and they have every right to be in my opinion. It's not really a case of being worried about offending Jews of Muslims, it's more a case of culture evolvment and most people not wanting to be given a label, like saying their first name is a 'Christian' name when it's just their first name. Although it doesn't bother me being addressed in that way, I certainly wouldn't ask the same question to somebody else, and do consider it something my Grandad might ask; and would consider someone else saying it a little old fashioned rather than a little offensive.
So far, I've spent probably a bit over 6 months in the UK, but with going through the immigration process and getting married, probably filled out lots more forms than most people do in that period of time. I have never once heard the term Christian name. I guess it depends on where you go and who you speak to. I understand that "Christian name" is now used in a secular sense, just to mean "given name", but when you take a word that is associated with one religion and make it the "accepted" term, you marginalize other religions. When you use the term "Christian name", which obviously at one point had to do with Christian people only, and extend it to refer to people of all religions, you are stating that Christianity is the norm of society. This is similar to people who treat Christmas as a secular holiday, and expect non-Christians to celebrate it. This is kind of what Simone de Beauvoir talks about in The Second Sex, although she refers to gender, not religion--that male is seen as the norm, so that male behavior is neutral behavior, while female behavior is "different behavior". Franz Fanon also talks about this when he discusses colonial societies. The colonists are the norm by which to judge behavior, the natives are "the other". In the same way, when you take Christian terms and treat them as general terms that apply to everyone in society, you are making Christianity the norm. edit: I obviously never heard the term in the US as the majority of people I lived among were either Jewish or Muslim. edit 2: The person who complained about this had the experience of not being allowed to take a day off work to see her family on Passover. When she told them that she was willing to make up for it by working on Christmas, she was told "nobody works on Christmas." Even though Christmas is not a holiday for her.
Isn't this then a part of a bigger process? Specifically, setting a norm for society based on outdated religious principles, purely out of habit. I don't think there is any real intention behind it, it is a fairly natural cultural process. Of course people are judged by the ideas of the traditional majority. It is not a very beneficial approach, but it is understandable. I don't think people should take offence, but it is also understandable. A little flexibility on both sides and it is all so much easier. In the transition towards a modern multicultural society these clashes of customs are normal. They will gradually disappear as different cultures adapt to each other. We may still be in the reactionary phase, but synthesis will occur. Over time society will find new subjects for stupid remarks and actions.
I liked the Malaysian way fo dealing with their multi-religious society... They celebrate everything, the muslim holidays of Hari Raya at the end of ramadan, Chinese New Year, Hindu Taipusan (spell?) and Depavali and also christmas... What makes it great is that you get bucket loads of public holidays and get to experience nearly everything. Except for Jewish holidays but seeming as how the number of Jews in Malaysia can probably all fit into a very small room they probably make their own arrangements... Although I wouldn't advocate their way of dealing with their multicultural society in terms of politics and stuff, when it comes to public holidays its great
We have no such problems here. If someone asks for a name they just say "name". Usual column in any form is S.N.P (surname, name, patronymic) - Bukreev Ivan Nicolaevich.
Marcia, I do understand the points you are making, but you are not taking account of the fact that Britain still is a Christian society. I believe the last census showed that there is still a majority of Christians in this country, although I'm not very clued up on that. However secularised we are, the leader of the land is the Queen, who is the 'Defender of the Faith', ultimate head of the Church of England. Chief Anglican bishops here automatically have a seat in our parliament. In Britain we have an established religion (antidisestablishmentarianism being the school of thought of those who seek to prevent the separation of church and state). Now, especially as you are American, you may think this is wrong too; but it does have a bearing on what is appropriate. If you were in Saudi, would you be offended by assumptions that most people are Muslim? It's the same kind of thing. Personally, I don't like having an established church, but I understand that there are constitutional difficulties with disestablishment. It offends me too, since, even though I am a Christian, I am a 'nonconformist', not represented by the Church of England. I understand about the importance of inclusive language, but I still think the woman should just get over her offended feelings (especially since the man had no intention of hurting her, but was only using a standard British phrase - it's our society she needs to be angry with, not just one man). Firstly, she's in Britain, and she should expect that things will be done a British way, not an American way or any other. Also, while I am all for change of an unfair system over time, I think oversensitivity should not be condoned. I bite my tongue a lot over things I perceive as anti-Christian, since I know I am oversensitive about it. The PC brigade in Britain runs into what I consider to be a healthy amount of realism.
I think the American woman getting her panties in a knot over the British way of doing things is like the English tourist who complained to his travel agent that his holiday in Spain was lovely but that it was too foreign... Its called cultural sensitivity, and I think the use of the term christian name is comparatively mild to some of the culture shocks you can come across (a friend who lived in Indonesia for a year got wanked at in public 6 times because as a western woman she was seen as a sex object - damn american TV and movies)... Loved to see this ckicks reaction if that'd happened to her :roll:
Meh. As people have said, christian names just a phrase. I also thought this topic was about first names when I saw the title of it. ::shrug:: It's not really used on any thing official, but most people in this country would still think of a christian name being your first name. I don't think thats inherently offensive, and I'm verging on thinking that anyone that is offended by it needs to possibly take a step back and calm down a wee bit
