In Greece mandatory retirement is, for office workers, as 65. Those in "heavy and burdening the health" jobs, such as miners, get retired at 55, if I am not mistaken. The public welfare system has had a lot of problems of late, and now the goverment wants to raise the limit at 70. There is a lot of opposition and the jury is still out. In Greece, very few are the working mothers who do not have someone to look after the kid; grandmothers fawn over grandchildren like the Gollum over the One Ring.
[quote="Marcia] Working class is someone who cleans other people's houses, for example. I was saying that it's not possible for one spouse to support a family on a "working class" salary. Your family would be middle class, according to my American view of class structure. That's why I think it's a cultural/language difference.[/quote] I think a lot of it also depends on the ability of the people involved to manage money... my mother raised four kids on a single income when my father broke his back in a car accident - she worked in a department store on what was basically a minimum wage; worked a full shift and then some, came home and cooked and cleaned for us... paid off the house & land mortgage and all and still managed to have money over for emergencies. We didn't have much but we had a good upbringing. She was a thrifty farmers daughter... knew how to live off the smell of an oily rag. As for the custody issue - this reminds me a lot of what things were like sixty plus years ago when custody was just as automatically awarded to the father in divorce cases... funny how views change...
MoonCat, I agree with what you are saying. But in your case, the reason you only had one parent working was because there was no choice, your father was disabled. Just as single parents have no choice but having their family live on one income. (Did your dad get any type of disability income, by the way?) I'll bet if your dad could have worked and added more money to the family budget, he would have, because he would have wanted his kids to have a better life. Not the same as a middle class family where only one income is needed to make the family comfortable (not just surviving, but comfortable), and extra money from other family members will just make the family more comfortable, or possibley even rich. Sacharissa, surely even in Greece there are children whose grandparents are no longer living.
Yes, there are children without grandparents, but they are the minority. Greece has a great life expectancy (which is bound to plummet, since smoking became common among the young populace thirty years ago), and people used to marry very young. An old lady at the village died last week and she had had six great-grandchildren, with a seventh on the way. Parents who cannot count on the assistance of [i:041d66b558]their[/i:041d66b558] parents are forced to either place their children in daycare or hire a nanny. Women in some professions are lucky, because they can get a two-year leave from work to raise their children. In my profession, I can only get four months for late gestation-early post-partum. The biggest problem though is having someone at home when the children return from school. Fortunately, for the past couple of years, some schools have started, on a trial basis, a prolonged timetable, with which parents can either leave the children at school before working hours or pick them up after they have finished their work. So far it's just a safe place to leave the children before you finish work, for lack of teaching staff to do the extra-curricular classes planned. Even so, remembering how worried my mother was when we were at home without grandfather, I say this is a big step forward.
Marcia, I have to admit I am, a little, loosing the focus on what point you are making. That might be caused by understanding problems from my side. I get the facts, and so far, noone disagreed with them. But could you help me by summing up the conclusion?
The prospect of compulsory retirement in nine year's time terrifies me - not just from the financial point of view - work gives shape to my life. Of course, at the moment, having just been made redundant at the age of 56, and being a computer programmer - a field which is usually dominated by much younger people - I may have already retired and just don't know it yet! If a day's childcare (presumably in a creche/nursery or whatever rather than an in-home nanny) is costing a day's salary then something is wrong - economies of scale (staff looking after more children than any individual parent) should make it cheaper - I suspect that over and above such basic costs as premises, heating, lighting, etc. there are probably a lot of government-mandated costs such as insurance, qualifications of staff leading to higher salary requirements (should there be requirements for looking after other peoples' children when looking after one's own is a purely amateur unqualified job?) - and these probably are a disincentive to companies who would otherwise supply facilities to staff - a creche/nursery for large companies, or just allowing the children to be brought into the office (as long as they were well-behaved - could be good discipline for them!).
[quote:70d764946a="Saccharissa"]In Greece mandatory retirement is, for office workers, as 65. Those in "heavy and burdening the health" jobs, such as miners, get retired at 55, if I am not mistaken. [/quote:70d764946a] In essence that seems like a good idea. I wouldn't have thought this was very common, but what happens if someone chooses to work in an office for twenty years, then decides to become a miner at the age of forty? Does he get to retire at 55, or does he get sent back to utilise his office experience? [quote:70d764946a="Pixel"]or just allowing the children to be brought into the office (as long as they were well-behaved - could be good discipline for them!).[/quote:70d764946a] I'm pretty sure that would be disastrous! Young children require LOTS of attention, things to play with and a place to run around. The denial of these does not constitute discipline, it constitutes frustration and tears for children and parents alike! I went to work with my dad, but not till I was old enough to actually help him.
[quote:b91e418679="Hermia"]..... [quote:b91e418679="Pixel"]or just allowing the children to be brought into the office (as long as they were well-behaved - could be good discipline for them!).[/quote:b91e418679] I'm pretty sure that would be disastrous! Young children require LOTS of attention, things to play with and a place to run around. The denial of these does not constitute discipline, it constitutes frustration and tears for children and parents alike! I went to work with my dad, but not till I was old enough to actually help him.[/quote:b91e418679] Children playing or even running around in the office would not give me a problem, as long as they did not try to use my computer or interfere with things on my desk, and for the younger ones still in the cradle, if they started crying then all the mother has to do is give them a dummy, a bottle, or stick them on a tit (I know that is rather a sexist assumption, that it would be the mother bringing the child into work, but it does fit with the most likely case)
I don't think stopping a crying baby is really that simple. I agree in theory that would be fine, but in practice having a minor in the office is going to cause a distraction. Plus, I would imagine there would probably be some bizzare health and stafey rule.
Sorry, Pixel, but your idea must read bizarre to anyone who has spent some time around babys. I assume it was slightly ironic /humourous. Otherwise, read Rinso. Usually one child in the room, when it's not one of the newborn "sleeping 24h a day" kind (which are rare) is enough to destroy any attempt on concentratiing. It recently took me 1 1/2 hours to fill out an application of two pages, an application I had filled out [i:c86c4f496d]douzens [/i:c86c4f496d]of times before, because my daughter had decided on "helping" me. And your computer [i:c86c4f496d]will [/i:c86c4f496d]be the thing that fascinates them most! Go spend a day as a voluntary in a child crib, only one entire day, and you'll know. That, or watch "[i:c86c4f496d]The Gremlins[/i:c86c4f496d]". I mean, if it's that easy to calm a crying child, why did I spend 18 months with no more than three hours sleep in one go? Stupid me.
Sorry, couldn't resist - I know it's baby talk, but as this thread is about children right now, just as an illustration, an excerpt from my diaries: One totally normal night with my eight weeks old daughter: [quote:f0f7e241f2]Of the day, I only remember that M. wouldn't even let me go to the bathroom without breaking into loud crying - she obviously expects me to spontaneously combust as soon as I leave the room and never come back. She also drinks (read: is breastfed) as if there was a food shortage coming on. She refuses to sleep somewhere else than lying on my belly or when her father carries her in her baby sling. Lying her down is not alowed and results in more -and loud- crying. The night went like this (her doc wants me to write a diary): -drinking from 19.25 till 19.50, nappychanging, then wants to drink some more -more drinking from 20.07 til 20.35 towards the end, she's dozing away, but when I try to put her into her bed, she starts crying. We try to make her fall asleep in her bed, by holding her hand and singing to her - after all, she's got to learn it at some point. Or is she planning to spend the next six years on my belly? -we give up at 21.30. Now she's hungry again, probably from screaming so much. I feed her, and just lie down with her, in our bed. She's aleep! -wakes up again at 22.13. She can't be hungry again, can she? She can... Is fed til 22.42. -wakes up 23.00 and cries til 23.23. Dozes away in my arm, but is still alert enough to take care I don't put her away. -wakes up again at 01.23. Cries for half an hour. Drinks from 01.56 to 2.10. -wakes up again at 3.55 and wants me to hold her. Falls asleep again at 4.10. Wakes up again at 4.15 and cries til 4.45. Sleeps til 6.00. Her father gets up with her to allow me some sleep, until he leaves for work at 8.10. Whenever it says "wakes up" insert "WaaaaaaahaaaaHAAAAAAAAAAAAA" as score. [/quote:f0f7e241f2] That was quite a normal night, and don't ask me where she took the strenght, but it wasn't that she slept at day. That takes everything out of you, and it helps when you rellay love your child. A lot of the "amateurs" still are still overstrained - now if I'ver got two women taking care of eight children they don't necessarily love like their own, and one of them is mine, I'm quite glad they aren't amateurs. Edit: It rained typos today.
No, Hsing, it was a perfectly serious suggestion. Rinso - maybe my experience for the last few years affects my perception of distractions - while my colleagues were holding loud discussions about the state of the company in the middle of the office, in French, I just ignored them and got on with my work - babies/children can't be any worse than that. Hsing - your diary excerpt doesn't seem to make any point - surely your arms are long enough to reach a desk and if necessary a computer even with an infant strapped to your chest (given your previous comments about continuing your education I am assuming you are not going for a career in manual labour) - nappy changing is no different to an employee going to the toilet, as long as the employer provides a table and, hopefully, disposal facilities (which considering that there are people nowadays expecting employers to supply showers and changing facilities for sweaty cyclists is a fairly minor demand) - and if a woman is shy about breastfeeding in the office, it is possible to wear a poncho type garment while doing so. I will admit that I am a bit of a fanatic on the subject of breastfeeding, even though as a man I could be considered to have no right to a view on the subject - I just feel that after thousands of years of evolution, it must be the best option for the development of the child - and when you come down to it, isn't the next generation what it's really all about?
Pixel - sorry, but if your suggestions are serious, I can take them just as serious as you would probably take mine if I, a computer amateur, told you how to do your programming work. Sorry if my diary exchange made no sense to you. Maybe others can read it as an illustration of how a child, especially a small one, simply is no Tamagotchi you switch off every two hours, and put it in your pocket to do something completely differnet until it beeps again in two hours. Its not a question wether I am (I am not) to timid to change nappies and breastfed in public. Its a full time job. A 24 hour one, in some cases (another thing I wanted to illustrate with my pointless post.). I once had an 60-to-90-hours per week job that was holidays in comparision, because I got my occasional 8 hours of sleep in one row, and people weren't screaming five hours in one go next to my ear. Then again, maybe I just don't try hard enough... In that case, go on, more creative ideas on childcare - It's surely entertaining, even if that wasn't the intention.
[quote:d9c4637b99="Pixel"] Rinso - maybe my experience for the last few years affects my perception of distractions - while my colleagues were holding loud discussions about the state of the company in the middle of the office, in French, I just ignored them and got on with my work - babies/children can't be any worse than that. [/quote:d9c4637b99] Oh my god! French! Those bastards. The problem with your analogies is one involves an irrational screaming babies and the other consists of a loud-but relivant conversation- in french. If you had a problem with the volume of the french conversation you can just say 'shut your pie hole frenchie' and the volume will lower. You cannot do that with a child. Another problem, is that you have an arguement that you want to make universal, based on your own individual experince. *You* can just ignore noise and get on with your work- does that mean everyone else can- No.
Heh! Wasn't "designed by nature" some kind of advertising slogan? Saccharissa: A lot of the little Gremlins are like that, although from more than five hours screaming each day on, there's a word for it... "Whiner", I think, although that is only a literal translation from German, or "scream-baby", they call it too. How old is your sister, in relation to you?
Rinso - any parent should demand a refund - something that takes nine months from putting the order in to the actual delivery, and [i:f83f0a120f]still[/i:f83f0a120f]arrives with the plumbing controls and most of the software still to be installed must be against some fair trading law somewhere! Hsing - what I am saying is that whether a company is a small one without the facilities to run a creche/nursery, or a large one which can, with tolerance (and, Rinso, if you want to get on with your work, there is no difference between screaming babies and loudly talking French-speakers who you can't tell to shut up because some of them out-rank you - believe me - I know! In fact, given the choice, give me screaming babies any time!) then allowing the children in the office is a reasonable compromise between being a good parent (whether in one's own view or the local community's) and earning the money needed to support the child - whether this is a second income or a single parent - the parent could still spend more time with the child than if it was in a separate facility. A thought has occured to me - this discussion has been rather oriented towards the "Western" world - Europe and America - how is this handled in other parts of the world?
[quote:ab30f38716="Pixel"]...then allowing the children in the office is a reasonable compromise between being a good parent (whether in one's own view or the local community's) and earning the money needed to support the child - whether this is a second income or a single parent - the parent could still spend more time with the child than if it was in a separate facility. [/quote:ab30f38716] Am I getting this right - you say the child would be better off in an office than in a good day care facility? Or where is this heading now? Also: I think you know quite well what my point was, and while you elaborately [i:ab30f38716]corrected [/i:ab30f38716]me just a few posts ago, you're simply skipping it now. You [i:ab30f38716]can'[/i:ab30f38716]t absolve a day's work and take care of a small child! and an older one would rightfully bored to death if forced to spend it in an office. Good god, it's not like keeping cats! And don't comment on my arms being long enough again, please. I know how long my arms reach...
I was a pretty easy kid. My mother brought me to work once or twice. But she was working as an arts and crafts teacher. Leaving her a bit of time between classes. That said, she only brought me into work when she couldn't find a sitter. Pixel: I have no idea if you have ever been around a kid longer than a few hours, but it doesn't seem that way... As for working with a kids next to you: I'd be hard pressed to take care of a baby and the barrage of calls/e-mails and requests that I have to deal with. A 4 year old would be even harder. Plus, I'd be realy annoyed if I'd have to deal with *other people's kids* at my workplace.
[quote:7e0a858ab3="Pixel"] there is no difference between screaming babies and loudly talking French-speakers who you can't tell to shut up because some of them out-rank you - believe me - I know! In fact, given the choice, give me screaming babies any time![/quote:7e0a858ab3] Pardon? Que? Entschuldigung? You wot? A baby crying is far, far, far, far, far, far, far more annoying. Far. The pitch of a babies cry is far harsher on the ears than a frenchman and here's the clincher, [i:7e0a858ab3]you can ask the frenchman to be quieter.[/i:7e0a858ab3] [quote:7e0a858ab3]then allowing the children in the office is a reasonable compromise between being a good parent (whether in one's own view or the local community's) and earning the money needed to support the child[/quote:7e0a858ab3] Now, having listened to the experiences of a mother who stayed at home, how can you say that? By the diary alone, the mother would have to work for about twice the amount of time to get the same amount of work that they could do without a child. Even when working, they would lose track of what they were doing if the baby needed attention. As for if part of their job was on the phones... It's just completely unfeasible. No sensible employer would allow it and no sane mother would stay that way.
Hsing - if there is a good [i:37530af20d]affordable[/i:37530af20d] day care facility, fine - but one of the starting points of this discussion was the "one day's salary for one day's care" situation, which is self-defeating - I am talking about other solutions which could be more practical - a company-run creche/nursery is obviously a best option - the parent* can then work but still pop in to see the child from time to to time - but not all companies are large enough to support this - the real point I am making is that a lot more tolerance is needed so that people can combine family life and children with a career and/or education. Also, Hsing - I'm not sure what you think I'm skipping now after "correcting" you - could you elaborate please? And Tephlon - you're right, I haven't spent much time around kids of the age we're talking about - just the odd bit of babysitting many years ago - but if they've got their toys/books/whatever with them, how is it different if they are in an office or at home? *Notice how I'm carefully being non-sexist here?
[quote:81264dadf9="Pixel"] And Tephlon - you're right, I haven't spent much time around kids of the age we're talking about - just the odd bit of babysitting many years ago - but if they've got their toys/books/whatever with them, how is it different if they are in an office or at home? [/quote:81264dadf9] Office = Work = No distractions. As for babysitting: usually you get a babysitter for a kid that is not a problem, otherwise you get a professional nanny, or you stay home. I don't have kids, but I have been around kids, small kids, a lot. I even considered studying on how to run a creche, my designer side won me over.
[quote:66753ae411="Tephlon"]...............Office = Work = No distractions..............[/quote:66753ae411] Where do you find that? I've been working for thirty-eight years and have [i:66753ae411]never[/i:66753ae411] had an office with no distractions!
[quote:64c78c7a78="Pixel"][quote:64c78c7a78="Tephlon"]...............Office = Work = No distractions..............[/quote:64c78c7a78] Where do you find that? I've been working for thirty-eight years and have [i:64c78c7a78]never[/i:64c78c7a78] had an office with no distractions![/quote:64c78c7a78] No distractions for the kid. Plus, the workers have too many distractions as it is. A screaming baby will require that everyone brings headphones. [quote:64c78c7a78="Pixel"]Hsing - if there is a good affordable day care facility, fine - but one of the starting points of this discussion was the "one day's salary for one day's care" situation, which is self-defeating - I am talking about other solutions which could be more practical - a company-run creche/nursery is obviously a best option - the parent* can then work but still pop in to see the child from time to to time - but not all companies are large enough to support this - the real point I am making is that a lot more tolerance is needed so that people can combine family life and children with a career and/or education.[/quote:64c78c7a78] You were talking about bringing a baby to work before... And putting it somewhere nearby and treating it like some kind of tamaguchi. A baby does not magically go quieter. It's a person, Pixel, with of mind of its very own. Which means that making it stop screaming its lungs off can be very, very difficult. Imagine an office floor devided into cubicles. Imagine one of them having a baby. Imagine the baby screaming and screaming. Imagine the effect on the employees.
[quote:a34979818f="Pixel"][quote:a34979818f="Tephlon"]...............Office = Work = No distractions..............[/quote:a34979818f] Where do you find that? I've been working for thirty-eight years and have [i:a34979818f]never[/i:a34979818f] had an office with no distractions![/quote:a34979818f] Okay, make that: Office = Work = The least distractions as possible. No way that you're going to be able to work the way you should* when there's a kid in the room. Especially if it's yours. Like Roman said (and some other people before) a kid is not a Tamagotchi. You can't "turn them off" or plump a bottle or a pacifier in there. *They pay you a wage for a reason....
I work in a model planetarium. Read: no windows, usually pitch darkness, decades worth of dust, 3 guys (plus me) working so intently you can hear the bones grinding in their mouse-controlling hand ... oh, and clients are brought in randomly for a demonstration of the projection system, during which time we animators are supposed to hide somewhere and stay vewwy vewwy quiet, so as not to disturb the show. Superimposed a picture of me with a baby. Laughed until tea came out my nose! I'm totally willing to take Hsing (and other Board Mamas') word for this, but I've also a) watched my brother during his baby stage, b) have a friend who gave birth about a month ago. (Her son, like Hsing's girl, will NOT go to sleep unless he's on Mommy's stomach! What did Nature intend by this set-up anyway?) With a baby around, you're lucky to get a shower and a bit of sleep. No work is possible, PERIOD! As for toddlers/pre-schoolers, you'd literally have to keep them caged up in order to keep them from wandering off.
Erm... Pixel, my arms quite literally are not long enough! I can just about breastfeed and browse through message boards at the same time, slowly and with difficulty, but only on one side. Not being very good at manipulating the mouse with my left hand makes it virtually impossible on the other side. My typing speeds are halved, and I can [i:5d3b488bc6]either[/i:5d3b488bc6] answer the phone [i:5d3b488bc6]or[/i:5d3b488bc6] make a note. Moving anything other than my mouth and one hand is impossible. Sometimes even that is impossible, if Baby is in one of her moods, which happen daily at unpredictable times and for at least 2 hours. Then there are the times when the only way I can stop her crying is by walking around with her. And I don't know about anyone else, but when my baby is crying I can't concentrate on anything else. It's called instinct - baby cries, mother listens. If you were an employer, would any of the above be even mildly satisfactory??? I am planning on starting a business from home next year, and frankly I have no idea how I'm even going to manage that. Edited to add: This is from the point of view of breastfeeding. Bottle-feeding is even harder, as it requires the use of both hands (or it does when I do it). Leaving a small baby with a bottle is dangerous as the baby could easily choke, and anyway can't hold a bottle!
[quote:0b9c4b9f02="Pixel"] Also, Hsing - I'm not sure what you think I'm skipping now after "correcting" you - could you elaborate please? [/quote:0b9c4b9f02] Pixel, you wanted me to elaborate. I've never shied away from carefully elaborating instead of just typing what I had in mind. I thought my words were quite clearly, actually, especially seen in context, but well. So here: There is one word wrong in your question, and that is the word "after". You skipped almost everything that has been said to you, all the time. Yes, that is podssible even when actually replying to it. Let me go over it step by step: You came up with an idea that, basically said, "People could just bring their children with them to work, I mean, they could take care of them causually." Hermia, another young mother, answered this would end in disaster, etc. Your response: [quote:0b9c4b9f02]Children playing or even running around in the office would not give me a problem, as long as they did not try to use my computer or interfere with things on my desk, and for the younger ones still in the cradle, if they started crying then all the mother has to do is give them a dummy,....[/quote:0b9c4b9f02] ...basically repeating what you had said before, adding ... details. When I red that post, I thought: Okay, someone with no idea how a small child works. Illustrating things with accounts from reality sometimes adds to the discussion. So, give the interested reader a chance to comprehend, give an example of a typical day with a small child, one where you didn't get the chance to eat or take a shower until 13.00. And I didn't want to boast, but I didn't just come up with what I wrote, I experienced it. I honestly thought that everybody with some reading skills might be able to imagine that there was no space in that day to get some work done. I wanted to post something that gives a feeling to a thing that is obviously totally abstract to some -and has to be-, i.e. how any baby crashes into your daily routine and destroys it. I also thought: It might be irony. Take that into account, you might be underestimating his subtle sense of humour! I wasn't. Your answer: [quote:0b9c4b9f02="Pixel"] Hsing - your diary excerpt doesn't seem to make any point - surely your arms are long enough to reach a desk and if necessary a computer even with an infant strapped to your chest (given your previous comments about continuing your education I am assuming you are not going for a career in manual labour) - .... .... ....[/quote:0b9c4b9f02] Then basically repeating youself, in the sense that you added nothing new except more details on how you imagined it would work. After everybody who answered, including me, pointed out why it wouldn't, you simply kept explaining in detail why it would, instead of taking into account [i:0b9c4b9f02]anything [/i:0b9c4b9f02]that had been said to you! And that's what I had in mind when I wrote "skipping". I also thought of my following post, [quote:0b9c4b9f02="Hsing"]Pixel - sorry, but if your suggestions are serious, I can take them just as serious as you would probably take mine if I, a computer amateur, told you how to do your programming work. Sorry if my diary exchange made no sense to you. Maybe others can read it as an illustration of how a child, especially a small one, simply is no Tamagotchi you switch off every two hours, and put it in your pocket to do something completely differnet until it beeps again in two hours. Its not a question wether I am (I am not) to timid to change nappies and breastfed in public. Its a full time job. A 24 hour one, in some cases (another thing I wanted to illustrate with my pointless post.). I once had an 60-to-90-hours per week job that was holidays in comparision, because I got my occasional 8 hours of sleep in one row, and people weren't screaming five hours in one go next to my ear. Then again, maybe I just don't try hard enough... In that case, go on, more creative ideas on childcare - It's surely entertaining, even if that wasn't the intention.[/quote:0b9c4b9f02] ...which someone with reading skills might have interpreted as an expression of anger about what I thought was a highly patronizing tone. Reading your post again after two days passing... [quote:0b9c4b9f02="Pixel"] Hsing - your diary excerpt doesn't seem to make any point - surely your arms are long enough to reach a desk and if necessary a computer even with an infant strapped to your chest .... .... ....[/quote:0b9c4b9f02] ...I stand to that interpretation, and I still take offense. You know, it makes a difference wether you start something like that with: "Correct me but I still think it migth work like this and that, bla bla..." , even if you are basically repeating the same old idea over and over again - OR if you do it the way [i:0b9c4b9f02]you [/i:0b9c4b9f02]did. How can you ask me what [i:0b9c4b9f02]I think [/i:0b9c4b9f02]you skipped when you actually state you're not taking into account what I'm saying about the issue - because I make no point? And no, writing that my post makes no point or that I make no point doesn't make a difference. Something I don't see from you for the first time in a debate. I actually can't believe people are still trying to make clear a baby's no Tamagotchi, and why it wouldn't work, instead of refusing to repeat themselves over and over again when -that at least is my impression- your only intention is to clinch to your idea. Some of these people know what they are talking about. And some just make sense. There. Elaborate enough?
One more thing... Even if you still insist that it's feasible for women who work in an office-like setting to bring babies to work - what about those working as police officers, or air traffic controllers, or orchestra conductors, or nurses, or waitresses...etc?
[quote:06135da208="mowgli"]One more thing... Even if you still insist that it's feasible for women who work in an office-like setting to bring babies to work - what about those working as police officers, or air traffic controllers, or orchestra conductors, or nurses, or waitresses...etc?[/quote:06135da208] I would add theatre technicians to that list - I am not saying every job is suitable - one has to choose a job suitable to all one's circumstances. Hsing - I have never felt the need here to preface controversial theories with "Correct me if I'm wrong" because in this community it goes without saying - someone will! I am not saying that every parent should bring their children into the office - the ideal solutions would be affordable company-run or outside creches/nurseries - what I am doing is exploring possibilities for other solutions where this is not feasible, and it appears that most other people seem to have a much lower tolerance for work distractions than I do - fair enough - it looks like my ideas wouldn't work in general - but any potential solution to a problem is worth exploring fully, not just dismissing it at the first hurdle!
[quote:33c7c212d2="mowgli"]One more thing... Even if you still insist that it's feasible for women who work in an office-like setting to bring babies to work - what about those working as police officers, or air traffic controllers, or orchestra conductors, or nurses, or waitresses...etc?[/quote:33c7c212d2] A female air traffic controller! Think of the crashes while she would do her nails and hair! Inconcievable!
[quote:4831222141="Bradthewonderllama"] A female air traffic controller! Think of the crashes while she would do her nails and hair! Inconcievable![/quote:4831222141] Brad - do you like living dangerously - I'm sure any of the women on this board could find out where you live if they really tried?
They'd have to use armor piercing rounds. And my address is available to all friendly people who want it.
I rate that custody should go to any parent that can suport the child best. If both can support the child then the child can chose whho he/she wants to go to. eg.Most boys get on better with there dads and girls with ther moms (atleast to a certain point).. :!:
[quote:14d1de80c6="Bradthewonderllama"][quote:14d1de80c6="mowgli"]One more thing... Even if you still insist that it's feasible for women who work in an office-like setting to bring babies to work - what about those working as police officers, or air traffic controllers, or orchestra conductors, or nurses, or waitresses...etc?[/quote:14d1de80c6] A female air traffic controller! Think of the crashes while she would do her nails and hair! Inconcievable![/quote:14d1de80c6] But think of all the lovely cakes she could bake for the rest of the real workers!
[quote:1a6d57df29="Pixel"](...) Hsing - I have never felt the need here to preface controversial theories with "Correct me if I'm wrong" because in this community it goes without saying - someone will! I am not saying that every parent should bring their children into the office - the ideal solutions would be affordable company-run or outside creches/nurseries - what I am doing is exploring possibilities for other solutions where this is not feasible, and it appears that most other people seem to have a much lower tolerance for work distractions than I do - fair enough - it looks like my ideas wouldn't work in general - but any potential solution to a problem is worth exploring fully, not just dismissing it at the first hurdle![/quote:1a6d57df29] I could swear you didn't get a thing of what I said, Pixel. Besides the fact that the main problem isn't that the colleagues -the colleagues on board included- wouldn't be able to work, but that a mother tending a baby wouldn't be able to just drag it along... Besides the fact that I wasn't dictating any words as such, but that I tried to give a random example of how one [i:1a6d57df29]could [/i:1a6d57df29]have chosen one's words instead of being so condescending... Besides the fact that no one [quote:1a6d57df29]" dismissed"[/quote:1a6d57df29] any [quote:1a6d57df29]"potential solution to a problem [is] worth exploring fully"[/quote:1a6d57df29] at the [quote:1a6d57df29]"first hurdle!"[/quote:1a6d57df29], but quite a lot of people shared my view that that idea was totally unrealistic and actually [i:1a6d57df29]argued quite a while, but to no avail, against a single-poster wall.[/i:1a6d57df29].. Besides the fact that my post was as much about [i:1a6d57df29]what [/i:1a6d57df29]you said, as well as the [i:1a6d57df29]way [/i:1a6d57df29]you chose to say it, and the non-surprising fact that you, again, chose to ignore the latter aspect (for the second time!)... Besides the fact that, then, you again become condescending in an old-unkle-like way... (and I am observing you do so when [i:1a6d57df29]I[/i:1a6d57df29] argue something, but instantly eat humble pie when someone of official board authority basically says the same)... Besides all those facts, after these last days' performance from you, [i:1a6d57df29]you[/i:1a6d57df29] are [i:1a6d57df29]not [/i:1a6d57df29]teaching [i:1a6d57df29]me [/i:1a6d57df29]about the state of the art of debate on this board. Not [i:1a6d57df29]you.[/i:1a6d57df29]
::creating a hit list:: 1) Brad. I know where you live and I can use my long scarlet talons to get through your armor! :badgrin: 2) Rinso. You're going second, but you'll be tied and forced to watch what I do to Brad first. 3) Pixel. I was going to let you go, but I didn't like the attitude of your "everyone else has a lower distraction tolerance level than I do" statement.
[quote:8a1ec54fb3="mowgli"]::creating a hit list:: 1) Brad. I know where you live and I can use my long scarlet talons to get through your armor! :badgrin: 2) Rinso. You're going second, but you'll be tied and forced to watch what I do to Brad first. 3) Pixel. I was going to let you go, but I didn't like the attitude of your "everyone else has a lower distraction tolerance level than I do" statement.[/quote:8a1ec54fb3] Oh no! Are you going to nag him to death with your girly femine nagging!
[quote:efd6d4d8cc="mowgli"].................3) Pixel. I was going to let you go, but I didn't like the attitude of your "everyone else has a lower distraction tolerance level than I do" statement.[/quote:efd6d4d8cc] Come on, Mowgli - that was a simple statement of my own attitude which explained why I could believe in the suggestions I was making but acknowledging from feedback that it wouldn't work for other people. Hsing - I am not trying to be condescending - I hope this is a purely linguistic problem - and if you read my posts you will see that I am acknowledging that in this discussion I am accepting that my opinions did not work out - it's not just Garner (and others) telling me not to mention my sex life - I do read and take note of other peoples views as well!
[quote:89126d9028="Pixel"] Hsing - I am not trying to be condescending - I hope this is a purely linguistic problem - and if you read my posts you will see that I am acknowledging that in this discussion I am accepting that my opinions did not work out - it's not just Garner (and others) telling me not to mention my sex life - I do read and take note of other peoples views as well![/quote:89126d9028] Fine, lets assume they're linguistic. I don't even want to guess whose language skills are failing whom here, but hey.
[quote:a1f0eb04e2="mowgli"]Roisin, what was that about a sabre? [/quote:a1f0eb04e2] Yes, you could use it to cut the freahly baked cake you made. Becuase your a woman. and thats what you all do.
[quote:ac1e39fec1="Hsing"][quote:ac1e39fec1="Pixel"] Hsing - I am not trying to be condescending - I hope this is a purely linguistic problem - and if you read my posts you will see that I am acknowledging that in this discussion I am accepting that my opinions did not work out - it's not just Garner (and others) telling me not to mention my sex life - I do read and take note of other peoples views as well![/quote:ac1e39fec1] Fine, lets assume they're linguistic. I don't even want to guess whose language skills are failing whom here, but hey.[/quote:ac1e39fec1] If it was a linguistic issue, then both the folks for whom English is a second or third language *and* those for whom English is a first got Pixel wrong. Pixel, if you want people to understand your opinions on matters, write them *all* as clearly as possible. Don't let people guess the rest, because the image you created earlier in the debate made the guesses limited to a very bad set of possibilities.
[quote:7839a75604="Roman_K"][quote:7839a75604="Hsing"][quote:7839a75604="Pixel"] Hsing - I am not trying to be condescending - I hope this is a purely linguistic problem - and if you read my posts you will see that I am acknowledging that in this discussion I am accepting that my opinions did not work out - it's not just Garner (and others) telling me not to mention my sex life - I do read and take note of other peoples views as well![/quote:7839a75604] Fine, lets assume they're linguistic. I don't even want to guess whose language skills are failing whom here, but hey.[/quote:7839a75604] If it was a linguistic issue, then both the folks for whom English is a second or third language *and* those for whom English is a first got Pixel wrong. Pixel, if you want people to understand your opinions on matters, write them *all* as clearly as possible. Don't let people guess the rest, because the image you created earlier in the debate made the guesses limited to a very bad set of possibilities.[/quote:7839a75604] Roman - maybe I should have said that I am [i:7839a75604]now[/i:7839a75604] acknowledging that my [i:7839a75604]original[/i:7839a75604] opinions did not work out - a conclusion reached by listening to other peoples' counter-arguments.
[quote:391d5cf50f="Pixel"]Roman - maybe I should have said that I am [i:391d5cf50f]now[/i:391d5cf50f] acknowledging that my [i:391d5cf50f]original[/i:391d5cf50f] opinions did not work out - a conclusion reached by listening to other peoples' counter-arguments.[/quote:391d5cf50f] Mayhap.
[quote:b0b0533afe="Rincewind"][quote:b0b0533afe="mowgli"]Roisin, what was that about a sabre? [/quote:b0b0533afe] Yes, you could use it to cut the freahly baked cake you made. Becuase your a woman. and thats what you all do.[/quote:b0b0533afe] Yup- I just made a cake. Its yummy. And [i:b0b0533afe]you can't have ANY[/i:b0b0533afe] :badgrin: THAT, my dear boy, is called having power...
This will be my last post in this thread, otherwise I shall say something regrettable in response to certain statements which I could easily take offense at. But for my parting shots: Pixel, I already had an alternative. It's called staying at home, whatever the financial implications. I was explaining my choice, and why for some this is the only choice, not asking for advice from someone who basically doesn't know. [quote:27368cf7fe="koshu"]I rate that custody should go to any parent that can suport the child best. If both can support the child then the child can chose whho he/she wants to go to. eg.Most boys get on better with there dads and girls with ther moms (atleast to a certain point).. :!:[/quote:27368cf7fe] Nice attempt to get the thread back on track there, Koshu! I don't think anyone noticed though.
Nice attempt to get the thread back on track there, Koshu! I don't think anyone noticed though.[/quote] Atleast it was worth a try
[quote:04d3e54f16="koshu"]I rate that custody should go to any parent that can suport the child best. If both can support the child then the child can chose whho he/she wants to go to. eg.Most boys get on better with there dads and girls with ther moms (atleast to a certain point).. :!:[/quote:04d3e54f16] Surely, thats a horrible position to put a child in. Having to pick one parent over the other?
It was but I had to make that very decision wen I was just seven years old! But I still turned out ok except for my many problems
Ok, so that wasn't my final post... At the end of the day, there is no nice solution to a family breakup. It's bound to be horrible, it's usually a question of find the best out of a number of upsetting options.
