[quote:3831520aa0="Buzzfloyd"][quote:3831520aa0="Hobbes"]Whenever it's late and dark and just because i'm a big guy (wich i am, 1.95 m and over 100 kilo's), i'm a potential rapist? That sucks.[/quote:3831520aa0] No. Nobody, at any point, has said that. Where did you get this from? [/quote:3831520aa0] Nobody said it, i assumed it. People mentioned that where scared in the dark when somebody walked by them closely. They have to be scared of something. When the sacred person is a women, i asumed, what i thought, was obvious, being scared of a rapist. Prehaps i should not have inmedaitly concluded that the scared person was being afraid of getting raped. But i still think it sucks that i scare people just because it's dark.
The woman, while being afraid, does not necessarily assume you are a rapist. She may be like me, knowing that you are in all likelihood a completely innocent (and probably helpful) person, but still suffering the physiological symptoms of fear because of events in her past. Also, I don't think size has anything to do with it really. Maybe because I'm 5'11" and weigh a good 170lb. But still, it was a smaller guy who jerked off onto me and Hermia.
This is one of the many things men don't understand about women... We are always wary of men. We are taught from a very early age that men can be dangerous and that there are always things we should avoid doing so men don't get dangerous with us. This has nothing to do with an individual man being dangerous but ALL men being potential threats. Men don't see women as potential threats but imagine for a moment how your life would change if you viewed all women as potentially threatening and dangerous. Then welcome to our world.
Fear is an irrational thing, mostly. It's a very subjective thing, too. I feel a lot safer in my "known" terrain, which is nonsense of course, especially seeing I live in the harbor district. I don't want to see all men as potentional threats and think I don't, but on the other side when a group of drunken women walks behind me when I am on my way home after dark, I don't feel as queasy as I would with a group of drunken men behind me. That's just how it is, and I think I neither can change it, nor can anyone ask me to change it - the people most horryfied when I mention I still walk home after midnight are usually men, by the way. That said, the most ugly thing that has ever happened to me happened when I was ten, at broad daylight, and it was an elderly neighbour of ours who kept a dog and fed pigeons in the park behind our house. He kept aggressively stalking me for almost a year too, and I had to deal with anxiety issues for years after. The body has a memory of its own that is not quite connected to your brain when it comes to such things. Well, one thing besides that I learnt from that incident is that all the stuff about clothing and dark alleys and tall dark guys and avoid this and avoid that is moot when some perv has decided you should be the object for his sickness.
I think it fair to say that most reasonable men understand that women can feel fear of men. The reaction of some of the men on here talking about how they feel that they have to appear less threatening to women is the point not that they are saying it because they think they are big dangerous looking men ( thats just them getting that in for the sake of their own ego's :roll: ) [quote:98b2552424="spiky"] This has nothing to do with an individual man being dangerous but ALL men being potential threats. Men don't see women as potential threats but imagine for a moment how your life would change if you viewed all women as potentially threatening and dangerous. Then welcome to our world.[/quote:98b2552424] You seem to think this is unique to women? NO, most men dont view all women as potential threats, but just like women the more inteligent men do view all men as potential threats, and only those with dangerously large ego's dont. The only difference is that for men the threat is purely violence but for women its the threat of sexual violence. I think the important thing for anyone male or female is not to let it become fear as fear will become your master and control your life.
[quote:581d847116="RebelwithoutaPause"]I think it fair to say that most reasonable men understand that women can feel fear of men. The reaction of some of the men on here talking about how they feel that they have to appear less threatening to women is the point not that they are saying it because they think they are big dangerous looking men ( thats just them getting that in for the sake of their own ego's :roll: )[/quote:581d847116] I just want to be able to walk and dress the way I like, but I don't, I adapt to ease my concience. Which I think sucks, but I think it's a fairer alternative than spreading fear, even if that fear comes out of prejudices. I don't think I expressed my views on this for the sake of my own ego, I think my reason was to show how all this doesn't only affect women.
[quote:1db8325f36="RebelwithoutaPause"]I think it fair to say that most reasonable men understand that women can feel fear of men. The reaction of some of the men on here talking about how they feel that they have to appear less threatening to women is the point not that they are saying it because they think they are big dangerous looking men ( thats just them getting that in for the sake of their own ego's :roll: ) You seem to think this is unique to women? NO, most men dont view all women as potential threats, but just like women the more inteligent men do view all men as potential threats, and only those with dangerously large ego's dont. The only difference is that for men the threat is purely violence but for women its the threat of sexual violence. I think the important thing for anyone male or female is not to let it become fear as fear will become your master and control your life.[/quote:1db8325f36] Wow, I actually found that quite offensive, first post I've seen that's ever affected me like that. I put up a post I thought was directed at being helpful and the response is an accusation of being egotistical. This was in no way a brag that I inspire fear in people. Nor do I agree that only egotistical idiots dont naturally fear any and every male who crosses their paths. I find it depressing if anything that you feel you need to be that fearful and suspicious. The general run of people are wonderful types, in nearly 24 years of life I've been fortunate enough to never be the victim of any crimes and you must bare in mind it is only a minority of people that are violent. Not having been directly, personally, affected I confess my responses are probably riven with naivety but I hope I wouldnt ever let that minority effect my life, that's just giving in to them. Personally I choose to take the approach of viewing most strangers(drunks, football yobs and their ilk aside) as potential friends than as threats and if that's being egotistcal and ignorant, then I accept that label with pride. Living in that shadow of fear must be horrible.
I didn't even perceive Rebels post directed at you, not after the way the discussion went for another page or so, and even after rereading I am not sure there is any cause for you to read it as directed at you personally. The "ego"'s bit read as said in jest to me, and if not, KK and one or two others would have to be just as offended. Still, I really can't read this implication into Rebels last post - - in fact, your standpoints didn't seem that far away from each other's, but it is up to the two of you to correct me there. Your last post before this one read completely sensible to me, this very one not more so (excuse me for butting this bluntly, but they don't say that's German discussion cutlture without a reason). If now my statement reads offensive I am sorry, but if I weren't so sure your post had been typed in the heat of the moment, I for example could claim feeling offended by this... ...or this. As if it were a rational, purposeful, and ultimately stupid decision grounded on the mistrustful and mysantrophy characters we have. Sorry again, but that's really what it sounded like to me after a first read. I also read "Here be room for misinterpretations" all over the place by now, though, and would like to think that was not what was intended.
I didn't find Rebel's comment offensive. I'm a guy. I've made women feel ill at ease when walking behind them (a few friends of mine have mentioned it to me. I walk very quickly and pretty quietly so it seems that I'm trying to sneak up behind them.) My size is not a problem. Most women could probably beat me to a pulp, so they don't feel threatened by my size.
Man when I read Watchaman's post then it totally depressed me. After my first few posts on this topic the last thing I wanted to do was offend anyone again. Thanks Hsing and Redneck for makin me feel a little better The ego thing was a joke. Have you noticed that everyone you talk to on the intenet is a big bad hardass in RL...or so they tell you so much so that when its true you dont often dont believe it or more to the point you just laugh at it anyway because its the intenet and badassness matters a lot less than grammer and is much less dangerous than wit and sarcasm. Therefore because of this I personally try not to mention anything about how badass i may or may not think i am.... why? Because I hate people thinking Im a braggart. Does it matter if people on a computer hundreds if not thousands of miles away think your a liar? No it doesnt but I do care. Now in this case people did not post that they where big etc in order to brag they said it to make a point so I had no intention to insult anyone I was just making a "huh typical men goin on about how big they are....rolleyes...lol" type comment... I know its hard to get a tone of voice across on the internet though. Damn I dont half go on....sorry. As for the second ego comment... I was wrong.. I forgot naivety as another reason. Also I didnt say I feared all men... I said I viewed them as a potential threat. Im not a paranoid person, I dont constantly watch my back... but I am perfectly aware of how evil the human race can be and how the worst perpatrators can be the last person you expect. Hitler didnt look particularly badass did he! Sorry if I offended you mate.
Heh, Hsing I've got no problem with your comments at all, certainly found no offense in them and hope once have read this post it will of cleared up the ambiguity of my previous post. In arguing my defense however I hope I can fully explain why I disagree with you and still find Rebels post offensive. It was, to my mind, clearly directed at those guys who had responded mentioning incidents when women were frightened by them. Of which I was one. Therefore I took it as not directed at me individually but at all of us who replied regarding this aspect of the thread rather than the general theme and for my part found it offensive, I hope that fully explains why I replied firstly. To the second part, "(thats just them getting that in for the sake of their own ego's :roll: )", perhaps I misinterpretted it, but that reads to me as if Rebel was saying we were boasting/bragging about the effect we had. And if I'm not permitted to take offense at that... As to your final point of finding offense in my post, I hope you bare in mind before casting judgement that this response was directed solely at Rebel and not at the experiences or statements of others(as I'd already replied agreeing with the earlier sentiments). As I said myself, I havent had any experience of it personally and have no intention what so ever of living in fear of the possibility. If you were to do that then why not live in fear of a car veering on to a pavement and killing you, or tripping on a cracked pavement and cracking your skull open? The posibilities for things to happen to you are potentially endless. You can take smart precautions which is good but worrying about them to the point where you avoid walking anywhere near roads in case of drunk drivers, or in this case living in fear of all men in case one of them is a potential attacker strike me as crippling and very unpleasant for anybody who has been made to feel that way. I've not aimed for leaving any room for misinterpretations in my posts as those are my views and I'm happy to defend them or alter them in the face of more information. You were right about it being a 'heat of the moment' post, however I still feel as I did then but hope this better explains my reasons for doing so.
Thanks for replying Rebel, guess I'm just too easily riled, makes sense now you explain it Will leave my post up for Hsing and delete it then but now you've qualified that comment I'm much happier, thanks!
Just one point before I have to logg off: Deleting posts is frowned upon on this message board; crossposting and all that can happen, and that's being kept in mind by people reading here, so that's no reason to delete anything. (I think it's mentioned in the Code of Conduct, but I am too much in a hurry right now to check.)
Ive invented a new communications medium....the intenet... Its akin to the internet but the [i:711453bb37]splling[/i:711453bb37] is worse due to random letters taking a break whenever they feel like it.
Fine by me. Just seemed pointless to keep posts up that were based solely on a misunderstanding, I'll of course bow to the will of the forum old folks and leave it be then
I spent the previous school year in France, and often ended up walking home at midnight after watching films at my friend's flat. I am fairly paranoid about strangers, generally uncomfortable around men in general till I've got to know them. I developed the strategy of altering my walk to seem more aggressive and standing as tall as I can, in hopes that I would seem to be another guy walking about at night. I was always grateful that I didn't attract catcalls and whistles like my classmates (slightly insulted at times, but I can deal with French guys not thinking I'm attractive, I'm about half again the size of most of the women there anyway!) because at night I felt like I didn't present an attractive target. Whether or not this is true, it made me feel a little safer. Then again, if I'm home alone at night I answer the door with a large skillet in hand, ready to swing. I relate very well to Tiffany Aching...
I think it's perfectly true that men can feel intimidated too; although not normally sexually. I'm quite apprehensive about walking alone at night, and I try to avoid it whenever possible. It's the fear of confrontation that scares me, I hate those moments of uncertainty.
I agree with Drunky, the uncertainty is the worst, one's imagination is usually more horrible than real life. Most people I've run into that have acted agressively towards me have usually just been confused. I talk calmly and kindly with them, and they in turn calm down and turn less hostile. Once, one person didn't turn less hostile. That is also the only time I have been hit (fighting with your brother doesn't count!). I have also never in my life thrown a punch at someone (again, brother doesn't count). It was at a graduation party, on the second floor of the bar the class had hired for the occation. A guy had been coming on to a childhood friend of mine who was in this class, and he saw me sitting with her in my lap at a table. When she went to get drinks he came up and sat down, telling me I wasn't to speak to her, she was his. He said his cousin owned the bar and he could have me thrown out of the window. I told him I'd known the girl since we were three years old and that I didn't see no reason why I shouldn't be able to talk to her. Obviously, this was not an answer he liked and he landed two fists in my face. Being somewhat dissapointed with his discussion techniques, I gave him a weak smile and left the table, after which I continued to enjoy the party until closing time. My friend didn't go home with him. Conclusion: beating me up won't get you laid with my friends. ;-)
That was one bit which I'd like to reply to in a "Just a thought" way. If a friend of you gets caught in a car accident, one big enough to scare you, and when driving again afterwards, which he does(!), admits that for a time, he is anxious to drive because all the time, he expecs to hear that crash sound again, and so drives with sweaty hands and beating heart, would you actually explain to him that only a minimal number of car drives end with an accident? And that, though never having had a heavy car accident, you don't think anyone should be scared off driving and that you for yourself would rather choose not to be immobilized by the fear of crashes? And wouldn't he, excuse me, file that under "useless comments"? If you can't relate to fear of such kind, it may indeed be because you neither happened to experience something like that yourself nor did it happen to anyone close to you. (Why are most parents scared for their teenaged kids when they don't return home until midnight? How likely is it that actually something bad happened to them?) Same goes for violent experiences or sexual assaults, for everyone, in a way: there are numbers of people who either experienced something like that themselves or know people who did, or both. They don't need anybody to tell them how unlikely it actually is to be attacked by a stranger, and that the people they are passing on the road are mostly harmless. They know that already.
I was going to post this earlier, but wrote it out and completely forgot - sorry if this goes over some of the things Hsing just said. Thanks to Hsing for reminding me that I'd written it. I think most people have stated that the fear is a slightly irrational one, albeit their fear is grounded in an unpleasant experience and understandable. You can think about it reasonably at home, but the fact is that there is a remote chance that the person following you is a nutjob and the fear helps you prepare to deal with that. Thinking about it logically, there is no real reason why a tall man wearing dark clothes would be any more threatening than a short man wearing bright clothes. Height is not a reliable indicator of strength or aggression, nor is clothing (and someone could be carrying a weapon). Which leads on to the next bit: The thing is, fear does not think about things rationally. Fear reacts, without passing through the normal cognitive process, and it reacts by making you wary, increasing the flow of adrenaline and so on. Fear is grounded in possibilities and when one of those possibilities has happened, then the fear has some backing and becomes stronger and more rational. You can tell yourself to stop living in fear, but your body doesn't always obey.
Hmmm, just wasted far too long typing out an answer to both those, then realised it wasnt worth the bother and would only cause much more time wasting, which you may the time and inclination to do, but I'm busier than that sorry. This matter closed much earlier in the thread when Rebel explained his post and I thanked him for it. Sorry but you two will just have to find another reason to type out whole posts that echo ones already posted
Hey man, we're having a discussion here. No one is arguing so it really isn't a matter of 'open' or 'closed' discussion. Lay off.
Watchman, you retracted your consternation about Rebel's post, but not the other points you made. And I heartily agree with Om. The discussion isn't closed, we can continue if you wish to the answer the points Hsing and I made.
[quote:85041c4631="Electric_Man"] [quote:85041c4631="Watchman"]As I said myself, I havent had any experience of it personally and have no intention what so ever of living in fear of the possibility. [/quote:85041c4631] I think most people have stated that the fear is a slightly irrational one, albeit their fear is grounded in an unpleasant experience and understandable. You can think about it reasonably at home, but the fact is that there is a remote chance that the person following you is a nutjob and the fear helps you prepare to deal with that. [/quote:85041c4631] I think there has been some misunderstanding about what I said earlier about women always having to be wary of men. I didn't mean that we always have to live in fear BUT that we always have to be careful in the choices we make... i.e. the clothes we wear and where we wear them, the places we go, how we get there and back and at what time etc... To demonstrate my point ask any girl whether she would feel comfortable sitting by herself in the average pub. Yes nothing is likely to happen, there's not a huge amount to be afraid of, but it is a very uncomfortable experience because it does open yourself up to unwanted attention. Whereas a guy alone in a pub does not have this problem. He's just there to have a drink. So I guess the point I was trying to get across is that while women don't live in fear, we do spend energy in evaluating, predicting and organising our lives to avoid situations that we would find scary or potentially dangerous... ...And this is from someone who used to work shift work and catch public transport so I used to be wondering around Sydney and its suburbs at all hours, by myself. Sometimes you just have keep walking and look like you know what your doing.
Yeah, I should have made the distinction between fear and preparedness. There are some who are really fearful, some who just want a back-up plan if the worst does happen but otherwise don't think about it, then a sliding scale between (which I guess most people are in). So yeah, my point was about those who are on the 'fear' end of the scale rather than the 'be prepared' end.
I'll reply to each in PM's, think it can be better resolved that way, which is what I should of done in response to Rebel to begin with to avoid the confusion, as my comments werent written as a balanced thought out arguement but were the result of a 3 minute tea break, so arent really suitable as the base point for a whole group discussion. If you must then go for it, I'm only a very casual poster on this forum though so chances are I wont read or reply to anything for days if at all as new topics seem to blossom very fast here At least if it's a pm and replied to then I have notification and can reply to each in turn rather than facing what feels like an arranged firing squad all at once
... couple of points: 1) discussions become closed only when no one has anything left to say on the topic. granted, sometimes discussions turn into monologs and other people stop paying attention, but its never really 'closed' 2) taking a discussion to PM deprives anyone else from having a chance to learn from what you might have to say. if your response is personal, or private, then that's what PMs are for, but if its part of a public discussion, why not keep it public?
I'll just quote myslef .... [quote:2a944534a1="RebelwithoutaPause"]I think the important thing for anyone male or female is not to let it become fear as fear will become your master and control your life.[/quote:2a944534a1] Just to reiterate that I was actually making a point to Spiky that men feel insecure, unsure, nervous as well when alone. Not allways no but certainly more I think than women realise. But I understood and agreed with her that its [u:2a944534a1]not fear[/u:2a944534a1]....well not allways but in fact just a healthy wariness. Its not because your women that you feel insecure its because your human. I think Drunky understood my point exactly judging from his post. hhmmm I could start a campaign... the Campaign for Sometimes Men Need a Hug Too!
I would prefer to keep this public as it started that way and I'm considering them the points made in your PM, but would like to get the bulk of my work done this morning before I do. If you don't mind, I'd also like to repost your PM on here and respond to it here. I don't know if you're aware of this, but just below the little window where you compose this message is a tickbox called "Notify me when a reply is posted", which may be of use to you in this situation. I'll PM this post to you though, just in case. Sorry if it feels that way (though I think you're joking...), but that's really not what we're trying to do. We're just looking to discuss the points made and argue our point of view, not hang you out to dry and point the vultures in your direction (they'll probably find the way, anyway - good sense of smell).
I don't see the need to take the debate to PM, Watchman. While I appreciate the 'firing squad' remark was humorous, there's no attack going on here, just a discussion. If you put your remarks in a public place, you can expect people to comment on them and often to disagree. You don't have to take it so personally. Rebel, of course it's true that men have to keep a look out too, and are often nervous or wary. What I was trying to say is that [i:e55b510518]rape[/i:e55b510518] specifically is a constant potential for women in a way that it isn't for men. I think that's part of the reason why men being raped is such a shocking and taboo subject for so many people. It's simply not as normal as women being raped. And how sad is it when rape can be considered normal for women?
